Today I Learned
What did you learn today? Share it with us!
We learn something new every day. This is a community dedicated to informing each other and helping to spread knowledge.
The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:
Rules (interactive)
Rule 1- All posts must begin with TIL. Linking to a source of info is optional, but highly recommended as it helps to spark discussion.
** Posts must be about an actual fact that you have learned, but it doesn't matter if you learned it today. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.**
Rule 2- Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.
Your post subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.
Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.
Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.
Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.
That's it.
Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.
Posts and comments which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.
Rule 6- Regarding non-TIL posts.
Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-TIL posts using the [META] tag on your post title.
Rule 7- You can't harass or disturb other members.
If you vocally harass or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.
Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.
For further explanation, clarification and feedback about this rule, you may follow this link.
Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.
Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.
Let everyone have their own content.
Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.
Unless included in our Whitelist for Bots, your bot will not be allowed to participate in this community. To have your bot whitelisted, please contact the moderators for a short review.
Partnered Communities
You can view our partnered communities list by following this link. To partner with our community and be included, you are free to message the moderators or comment on a pinned post.
Community Moderation
For inquiry on becoming a moderator of this community, you may comment on the pinned post of the time, or simply shoot a message to the current moderators.
view the rest of the comments
What's the expectation here? That there should be orderly exits and moderation in people attempting to evacuate an area when they are dying? I'm not seeing how these 2 dots are connected.
Yes, available exits are key and people can panic when they can see they are trapped and suffocating.
When organizers of mass gatherings funnel people into areas without exits and people start getting crushed they panic because they are dying. This happens during protests when the police direct them into dead ends or cut off avenues of exit. Alao happens at sporting event with large crowds.
Basically, people are pretty good at dispersing under pressure when they have places to go.
Basically if you read the whole wikipedia article nearly all of these so called stampedes are actually crowd collapses where people are packed in too tightly and when a couple people lose their balance and fall it almost has a domino effect and people often die of injuries or asphyxiation. And panic doesn’t cause these, it’s having crowds at too high of a concentration.
At even higher concentrations, you have crowd crush, where people who are standing upright get so packed they are unable to breathe and are asphyxiated to death.
I was commenting more on the quote by the Professor where he says they are panicking because they are dying. To me that means there's a scenario where a shooter has started killing people indiscriminately or something like that and people are panicking in an attempt to leave. It seems an odd quote/reference to use when documenting organizational failures.
People are panicking because they are dying of asyphyxiation.
But according to the wikipedia article the media tends to report on it as if the panic caused the deaths. When it’s the opposite.
From the wikipedia;
Incidents involving crowds are often reported by media as the results of panic.[16][17] However, the scientific literature has explained how panic is a myth which is used to mislead the attention of the public from the real causes of crowd incidents, such as a crowd crush.[18][19][20]
They're dying from the heat and pressure of everyone around them, and from not being able to leave to cool down or get water or more space.
I guess it’s making a point of saying that if there’s an organised system in place, people will maintain their composure and leave without issue, even in an emergency.
It’s when there’s a lack of organisation and a bottleneck that means people start to get crushed, then all hell breaks loose when they truly panic.
Basically, the lack of organisation and a safe route out is what causes the panic where people stampede, not the emergency itself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Hall_disaster
Doesn’t have to be an emergency. 183 children died rushing to get free toys.
Definition of poor organization resulting in death.
I can't name the last time someone has died in a "stampede". It's probably all the egress and occupancy regulations we have to mitigate them.
Crowd crushes which are often wrongly called stampedes still happen, even if “first world” countries. A recentish US-based example would be Travis Scott’s Astroworld concert.
That fucker egged it on too. I can't believe he didn't face any real consequences for that.
No he didn't. He literally pauses the show to see if everything's ok. He's an artist on stage with a million stage lights in his face and none of his crew or managers, or back stage people, or security, telling him that anything is happening.
Reddit just decided that it was the scary black rapper's fault rather than LIVE NATION, the literal largest concert organizers in the world who were contractually and legally responsible for organizing the venue, security, crowd management, the emergency response plan, etc.
And guess what the court cases have shown? That Live Nation had exactly zero crowd management plan and didn't stop the show when they should have.
You are literally just falling for the exact same pro business, blame someone other than the organizers, attitude that OP is posting about.
This one in South Korea is pretty recent (October 2022).
The last time in Germany, at least as I can remember, was the 2010 Loveparade disaster in Duisburg, that has happened due to enormous errors made by the organisers.
And the police.
Definitely.
Yes, those help the vast majority of the time, even during extremely dangerous situations like buildings being on fire.
There are still occasional incidents when organizers don't plan for the crowds or when anti riot tactics are used to restrict the ability to disperse while using tear gas and other techniques that are designed to make people panic so they will disperse, intentionally causing a stampede.
Put another way, with proper crowd management people will not be dying in the first place and so there will be no trigger to start a panic.