this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2024
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This is ahistorical. The republicans don't have support because they exist, they exist because their ideas are popular. Fascism is rooted in Capitalist decay, there will not be a proper left and right ever. Not that there can be a "proper right." They will only go away if Capitalism also goes away.
Not only that, but a Left Party cannot gain the donors necessary to maintain power within a Capitalist democracy, the ones with the money and power to influence the government will not work against their own interests.
They have not always been like this and capitalism is simply not going to go away as folks like myself do not want to see it go. Just curbed greatly. Now granted it depends on what you mean by capitalism. But basically Im fine with a monetary system where folks can buy and sell for profit in order to determine how to allot resources of relative value (ie I will pay more for a south facing even if everything is the same or for a first floor or for a top floor or I don't care and will grab the lowest priced one)
Capitalism is declining. Fascism is rising as a response to this, as disparity grows, and the Rate of Profit falls, the middle and upper classes (small and large business owners, essentially) unite against the lower classes, ie wage laborers. Capitalism will go away regardless of your wishes, it is unsustainable in the long run.
What's your plan to get this to happen? Without a plan, there's nothing separating ideals from fantasy.
Production of commodities for the sake of profit among individual Capital owners competing in a market, via wage laborers.
What are you arguing against here, where you don't believe you can present your individual interests?
If capitalism goes away I don't see it being followed up with a working society that would be preferable to live in. So while I don't think its innevitable I agree in its current form it is declining. My plan to get it to happen is democracy. We have to use the leverage we have currently to maximize equal say in government and work towards it. Im not arguing against anything im arguing for the buying and selling of property as an individual to determine what property I will own for things that make sense for an individual to own (so like not education or healthcare) but we have to prevent accumulation of to much property/weatlh/power via regulation like I said before.
Why not? Socialism solves the contradictions within Capitalism.
Do you have a reason to believe the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall can be eliminated entirely, not just temporarily avoided by, say, outsourcing production to countries with lower cost of living? That's already been done.
That has never worked in the long run, in history. The ones with the power to influence government are the ones with the money, this problem is getting far worse. What is your actual, practicible plan?
You can do that under systems other than Capitalism, why are you tied to it? That's why I asked what you're arguing against, that's like saying you want Capitalism because you want the sun to rise.
How do you take away power from the people who make the laws? Convincing them it's the right thing to do?
This goes back to a small part of my statement a few replies back. "Now granted it depends on what you mean by capitalism." If everything I wrote about personal property and profit are fine in your socialism and its a democracy then im fine with it but I would call your socialism a blend of socialism and capitalism which in my view is actually regulated capitalist system.
What do you think Capitalism, Socialism, and Communism are?
The profit motive is bad, accumulation of Capital results in enshittification, increased exploitation, increased disparity, and Imperialism, and should be moved away from.
Socialism doesn't mean you can't own your house, or that you can't express preference, and neither does Communism.
What, specifically, is the advantage of the profit motive, in your eyes?
Additionally, we have shown that we cannot simply regulate Capitalism out of its own destruction, that cannot happen structurally, so why stick with it?
profit comes from pricing. I mean I gave an example. when an apartment complex is built there are different floors and different facings. None of that is part of the cost of building the units. The units cost to build is all the same but depending on personal preference some will want something more than another be it floor or facing. That preference will need to be "fought" over by price which will result in profit or loss. If most folks don't want a particular facing or floor then those might be sold at loss and made up for with profit from the more wanted units. Even before that construction is determined by cost of materials which is determined by how difficult it is to source them which mostly comes about because of the labor that is needed to do it. Also regulation has shown to result in better capitalism. limiting media ownership is an example. breaking up monopolies, limiting levels of profit, and taxing itself. taxing is the ultimate form of regulation really when done progressively. The more profit you make the harder it is to make more profit if all profit is taxed on a progressive scale.
Profit comes from selling Commodities at their Value.
Cool, this doesn't contradict anything.
No it does not, there are methods to distribute by preference without price. Additionally, you can sell commodities without doing so for profit.
Again, don't see what this has to do with anything.
Sure.
I didn't say regulation was bad, I said it can't fix, only delay. Are you actually reading what I'm saying, or talking past me?
Im not trying to talk past you but either we have a different definition of capitalism which means we agree but to me you want capitalism and just not call it capitalism or we just don't see things the same. Right now I see the big difference here "" distribute by preference without price". You see in most cases that implies a lack of private property. Private property means I chose what I wanted and the distribution is by how much I will give up for it. If someone or something is making the decision then im not really owning what I want to own. I honestly think this is something you and I are not going to come to terms with. You say you want currency and ownership but seem to claim you don't want profit to be a thing and im trying to explain why profit (and loss) would have to be a thing. You say "Profit comes from selling Commodities at their Value." well yeah. That is what folks competing with their currency for what they want or taking something they want less to save currency to use on something they care about more is all about.
For clarity, I am a Communist. I want to move towards Socialism, and then Communism, over time. Capitalism necessitates production for profit, it doesn't mean any system with a market.
Yes, I disagree with the concept of Private Property along Marxist lines.
No, it does not, at all. Private Property refers to individual ownership of the Means of Production.
You can make these decisions without Capitalism and without the profit motive, at different points in the transition between Capitalism to Socialism to Communism.
I do not want currency in the long run, no, but in the short run it can be a useful tool. I do not want individual ownership of the Means of Production, no, but I do want personal ownership of goods and public ownership of Capital. Producing commodities and selling them for their cost of production via central planning is not Capitalism.
Not necessarily. Value and Price are not the same thing. Commodities can be sold above and below their Value.
yeah so since I want ownership and specifically a currency to buy and sell with, we just fundamentally disagree as you do not want it in the long run and I do.
You want ownwship of what? Why do you specifically need a currency? What are your goals, and why do you need Capitalism to achieve them?
Additionally, you haven't explained why you believe you even can have Capitalism in the long-run, you just kind of stopped answering those critical sections.
Because when I and another person are vying for the same thing of which there is only one I do not want a third party deciding. I want our relative decision on how much we want to to decide which currency acts as that weight. Who will spend more of the property they own (currency is property virtualized) will determine who gets it. I don't need to explain why capitalism will be around in the long run as it is a belief for both me and you. I would ask why you care about my opinion as you seem to believe the following. 1) Capitalism cannot be regulated by us as a society, which if true means capitalism cannot be removed by us as a society since removal is effectively 100% regulation. 2) capitalism will die on its own and is inevitable. So by that reasoning it does not matter what anyone thinks about it.
You don't need Capitalism for that, nor do I understand why having a third party mediator for disagreements is a bad thing.
Why do you want this? You are describing what you want, not why you want it. Additionally, you keep pretending Markets are Capitalism, Capitalism itself is only a few hundred years old.
Markets, not Capitalism.
I have provided mechanical evidence, you provided vibes and acknowledged my evidence, then brushed it under the rug. You do need to explain, your entire argument hinges on it.
Capitalism can be regulated, yes, but it cannot be fixed. Issues can be delayed or lowered, but as long as the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall exists, disparity will continue to rise until it snaps. Removal of Capitalism is not "100% regulation," that's nonsense.
Correct, mostly. Your personal feelings on the matter don't change the material conditions of Capitalism, nor its inevitable decline, but the more leftists there are that understand it and fight against fascism, the more likely we can organize and transition beyond Capitalism to Socialism, the next phase in the development of Human Mode of Production, and evetually Communism after that. If leftists do not organize, fascists win and a lot of people die to protect Capitalists.
Whats your favorite color. Blue. Why is it your favorite. Because I find it pretty. yeah but why do you find it pretty..... My answers are the why but you just ask why again. There is no point repeating agnosium. So much of what you say seems to be lets just not call it capitalism but I can tell there are small parts which I have already pointed out I want. If you want what I see as capitalism but not call it that. Well I don't care. but I really don't think you want it like I think of it. but its a guess because you keep on saying all the earmarks of capitalism is not capitalism and then also making remarks confirming this like my exchange examples. I have no idea what you see as mechanical evidence as I did not see that in our exchange.
It does reveal a lot that you'd compare how you decide your political opinions to how you pick your favorite color, vibes and aesthetics over logic.
You can pick houses and buy them in Socialism, just like people did in Feudalism before Capitalism.
The earmarks of Capitalism are individual owners of the Means of Production competing in markets to sell commodities made by wage labor for profit. Markets themselves do not need Capitalism, exchange isn't unique to Capitalism.
You said you understood the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall, is that not actually true?
strike1 on your first reply. I certainly do not want to live like a typical person under feudalism and far prefer capitalism. You need to bring down to exactly what you think makes up capitalism based on "The earmarks of Capitalism are individual owners of the Means of Production competing in markets to sell commodities made by wage labor for profit. Markets themselves do not need Capitalism, exchange isn't unique to Capitalism." and your other things it seems like profit. I exchange things for profit now and do not see not doing that. I did a ctrl f and the only time I see "Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall" is from your comments.
But why? What are your goals? What makes a system good, or bad? I can tell you exactly what issues Capitalism has and how Socialism fixes them.
You quoted exactly what makes up Capitalism. Is there something you wish for me to elaborate on?
Markets, not Capitalism. Unless you own a factory and sell what your workers make, of course.
So then you were talking past me. I already explained it, but if you want me to do it again I can.
I did not read this past the part where dismissed my issue with your part1 of "It does reveal a lot that you'd compare how you decide your political opinions to how you pick your favorite color, vibes and aesthetics over logic." im done
Gotcha, glad we could establish that you were never interested in having a conversation in the first place.