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https://sh.itjust.works/comment/12016983
That’s my comment, where I replied to you, with a source from the United Nations. I’ll highlight the relevant… title of the page… for you:
“Reasonable Grounds to Believe Conflict-Related Sexual Violence Occurred in Israel During 7 October Attacks, Senior UN Official Tells Security Council”
I also included an APNews article about this very topic, and addresses the ways that disinformation regarding sexual violence in this conflict about. Here’s the headline of that article:
“How 2 debunked accounts of sexual violence on Oct. 7 fueled a global dispute over Israel-Hamas war”
Edit: here is the actual UN report: https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf
AP massively manufactured consent for israel their report is worth nothing as they were spouting those debunked rape lies to begin with.
And it's certainly not 2 accounts.. It's far more.
And the israeli government claimed on BBC that there were survivors of "khamaaas rape" and that they had video, photo and forensic evidence. All which turned out to be lies.
So you did not read anything I’ve sent you?
I’ve edited my previous comment, and included the actual UN report.
Read the first line in my comment again. Israel is blocking the actual UN investigation. Your report specifically states that it is not evidence and cannot be used as evidence.
That Israel has not provided evidence? Maybe, but irrelevant to our conversation.
The UN report itself outlines how sexual violence has occurred in this conflict, right from the start.
Strange because the UN seems to disagree with you. The UN says there is no evidence Hamas raped anyone in this very article:
What? How does that say anything about what did or did not happen? This is about the mandate of the team, and, as I have been saying, means that there is more investigation needed. Please, highlight for me where the UN says that there is no evidence of rape. I think in this case it might be you who struggles with some of the nuances of legalese.
Over and over again, it says that there "are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred at several locations across the Gaza periphery, including in the form of rape and gang rape, during the 7 October 2023 attacks. Credible circumstantial information, which may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence, including genital mutilation, sexualized torture, or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, was also gathered."
None of this amounts to "there is no evidence of rape." What this means is that there needs to be more, sustained and explicitly mandated investigation before legal action should take place. This concept, I think, is called due process.
Strange so why would the UN require a real investigation to draw conclusions on rape?
The report has no investigative mandate. It contains the words of a woman named pramilla patten that desperately tried to help israel push rape propaganda but was not able to find any real evidence to do so. She was specifically invited by israel while israel blocked the UN team with an investigative mandate.
Because a wider, better resourced, and long term investigation would be better equipped to collect and analyze evidence? Because a better structured and mandated team would likely have more access, credibility, and ability to undertake that assignment? Because, as the report discusses, it often takes years or decades for crimes committed during armed conflict to come to their conclusion, for myriad of reasons?
Among other statements, here's what the actual UN report actually said about just this: "As in other conflict-affected contexts, there remains a significant likelihood that the findings of the mission team, in terms of verified violations, only partially reflect the crimes actually committed. A more comprehensive assessment of the occurrence of conflict-related sexual violence in the context of the 7 October attacks would require a fully-fledged investigation by competent bodies with adequate time and capacity." (Page 15, section C, subsection 56).
Over and over again this report says that "there are reasonable grounds to believe that sexual violence occurred" on that day, in various settings. I'm not sure why you think that this amounts to "rape definitely did not happen."
And, since your counterargument rests on the idea that Pramilla Patten is just "a woman," I think you should think about who and what she is: a legal expert, practicing lawyer, and judge who has been investigating gender-based violence for more than 20 years, and specifically sexual violence in conflict settings since 2017.
Yes you are right it repeats the "reasonable grounds" thing over and over and then undoes it by saying "lol we don't actually have an investigative mandate and this report cannot draw conclusions. Our witnesses and evidence and not mentioned trust me bro but also you can't trust me."
Very contradictory. You'd almost think that she is writing propaganda for israel here. And was specifically invited by israel to write propaganda.
Tell me again, why is israel blocking the actual UN investigation team that wants to investigate?
Consider reading the Finkelstein post again if you're having trouble with the deceiving legalise from Pattens report.
Doesn't say they can't draw conclusions, only that the conclusions they draw do not have the same legal weight as other possible legal instruments. You're also conflating their mandate and the evidence they collected; they don't have a mandate sufficient to complete the investigation, but that has nothing to do with the evidence they did collect. Which says, in no uncertain terms, that there is sufficient evidence to suggest that sexual violence occurred. Let me be clear, again: NONE OF THAT MEANS THE UN HAS FOUND ZERO EVIDENCE OF RAPE ON OCTOBER 7TH.
I'm sure Israel does want these crimes to be exposed. I'm also sure that the present government of Israel is a bad actor and is doing everything it can to subvert any critique against itself, while maximizing messaging critical of Hamas (and also minimizing any reports of its crimes).
Because the government of Israel sucks, and any intensive investigation would certainly recover even more evidence of the various war crimes it has committed, which obviously amount to a lot more death and destruction than anything that happened on October 7th.
Thanks, I have an advanced degree in international affairs, so I was trained by actual subject matter experts on how this stuff works. Dr. Finkelstein is not an expert in international law, which is why some of his critiques fall short, in my view, and explains why you don't seem to understand that just because a team does not enjoy a robust enough mandate that doesn't mean they don't collect evidence. It just means they don't have the proper mandate to collect all the evidence, and certainly not sufficient authority to make conclusions beyond certain evidentiary standards.
I'd also remind you that the UN is an intergovernmental organization, and with a few very notable exceptions, no UN entity can operate outside the restrictions that a host country places on it.
Yes the visit it has nothing to do with all of the NYT, AP, Guardian Reuters and other propaganda repurts being fully debunked and israel needing new ammunition to keep the rape lies alive
It is a sad state of affairs that someone with a degree in legalise is fully unable to read and comprehend anything said in reports. You should consider asking your university for a refund.
Then again, when I debunked the original NYT propaganda piece that everyone now admits is a massive hoax, another lemming told me they had a journallist degree and I should learn some media literacy because "The New York Times does the highest quality objective reporting"
I will end this conversation with a video of the woman you adore so much admitting herself that you are wrong
What? this doesn't seem like a statement that is relevant to our conversation, which is about whether sexual violence occurred on October 7th.
lol, I'll send a letter and see. I'd love for you to illustrate where my reading comprehension is bad, though. I just keep on waiting for you to prove your points, I guess.
Yikes, man. It's absolutely unreal to me that you are just blanket denying that there is any possibility that sexual violence occurred on a day where 1,200 people were murdered and thousands more injured by a decentralized group of combatants, many of whom don't believe that Israelis are real people. It does not do any credit to your argument that you are so vehemently opposed to accepting the possibility members of an armed group that perpetrated horrific acts against unarmed civilians across a wide period of time and space may have also raped people.
I watched the video. Seriously, where the fuck does it say anything about rapes not happening? Honestly, you keep saying this thing, and presenting evidence, but literally nothing you are showing me says what you're saying it says. Every single source you have posted says that that there is evidence of sex crimes. Every single one, including that video. Just saying a source proves your point doesn't mean that the source, yanno, proves your point.
I agree that the Oct 7 rape charges are bullshit, but you're misrepresenting the image you posted: it says there was no investigation and that one would be due to draw any conclusions.
There was no investigation. That would require an investigative mandate.
It is insane that anyone would believe witnesses provided by the israeli government after a track record of like 10 previous witnesses provided by the israeli government that were proven to be lying.
What's truly insane is how you're getting downvoted when Israel's claims have been repeatedly disproven or simply never substantiated.
These people are completely brainwashed. Israeli lies can be debunked 10 times. They spout an 11th lie without evidence and the cult of liberals holds it up like the Bible
The AP has been targeted by Israel for its coverage of the conflict.
In that article they interview the people who initially reported some of these cases of rape, and illustrate how and why they were wrong. It doesn’t say anywhere that there are no other erroneous reports of rape.
The UN report, which I’ve linked elsewhere, illustrates the evidence and methodology, and makes the convincing argument that sexual assault likely occurred in the context of Oct 7. It’s in plain English.
Once again https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/p/pramila-pattens-rape-fantasies
Consider reading that instead of replying to me. It debunks everything you said about the UN report 5 times over.
I have read the UN report. You have not.
I've read the report, and it states over and over again that there is credible evidence of assaults, and stipulates how it went about its business.
I'm working through Dr. Finkelstein's arguments. All I can see he does is cast doubt on the evidence that was collected and the mission's mandate. None of this amounts to "there is no evidence that there was any rape." It just means that there is evidence for more investigation.