this post was submitted on 26 May 2024
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[–] protist@mander.xyz 3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

Everything is allowed except aggression, defined as disproportional (non-similar) force, meaning force that would exceed a targets momentary aggressiveness (see meter) defined as the total (cumulative) aggression applied by the target minus the cumulative force received (in response) by the target at that moment.

You're saying the only thing libertarians have in common is a poorly defined, subjective "principal"...

[–] PsychedSy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 5 months ago

It's a belief in personal liberty, but the NAP is a useful analytical tool. Different people have different limits, though. It's a fairly robust way to approximate negative rights.

[–] bluGill@kbin.social -1 points 6 months ago

Sounds like every other party.

[–] Forester@yiffit.net -4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

I'm glad you want to have a discourse and aren't being disingenuous, oh wait...

The NAP is a moral rule that states that any person is permitted to do whatever they want with their property except when such action agressess on someone elses property, which is in turn defined as the application of or threat of physical interference or breach of agreement. The principle is also called the non-initiation of force

[–] protist@mander.xyz 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Ok sure, now how do you operationalize that?

[–] PsychedSy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 5 months ago

You just establish robust self defense. Protecting strictly property isn't part of it. If someone is actively attacking you, your family, whatever, self-defense pops in. After that, a less fucky justice system that focuses on making the victim whole rather than retribution would be lovely.

[–] Forester@yiffit.net -1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

That's the neat part you dont

[–] protist@mander.xyz 2 points 6 months ago

Truly a coherent principal

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Who defines whose property is whose?

[–] PsychedSy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

It's pretty standard private property ideas. Most are still kind of stuck in the (leftist definition) capitalist version of property where you kind of assume everything is already owned by someone and we toil for property.

I don't think it's necessary to go down that path, but I'm sort of neutral on how society chooses to handle it. I prefer the more homestead/robust abandonment types.

[–] Cryophilia@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Current standard property ideas require a robust central government to catalogue who owns what and enforce everyone's rights. Is that permissible under libertarianism?

[–] Forester@yiffit.net 3 points 5 months ago

Depends what flavor you endorse. I don't know the exact numbers but I would wager about half of us are minarchists. So the catalog part would be out the window but in theory, there would still be a strong legal system based on contracts upheld by basic government to hold a court system for disputes.

[–] PsychedSy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 5 months ago

Depends heavily on the libertarian. Big tent and all. I'd consider most libertarians minarchists that are willing to accept some government for things they don't feel can be handled voluntarily. Usually property, defense, police, fire and most court shit.

For ancaps/voluntarists check out poly-centric law.

There are quite a few ideas mostly based on how people think we can least coerce others with violence and how imaginative they are.

Trade is a technology that has to be developed. If you freeze it then you halt progress. The best we can think of now may not be the best way tomorrow.