this post was submitted on 20 May 2024
1580 points (97.2% liked)
Technology
59555 readers
4537 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
If after 16 years you still have to be asked if you believe in crypto, then chances are that it is a scam.
Good point, I always wondered if there is a way the technology will evolve and somehow find a niche that's unexpected. But you're right, 16 years is a long time to be meandering.
It's such a first-world thing to not understand all the good that crypto has done. There are countless lives that have been financially saved by having a safe place to hold wealth while their countries' fiat collapsed. It's just a short matter of time until many first world folks understand this as well.
Sounds like the same shit those rare metal guys are always yapping about but with extra scams...
Yeah, probably, don't worry about it, it's all a bit complex so probably all just the same thing, who knows. No way to tell really. You'll be fine without digging too deep into this stuff, it's difficult to understand.
Do you think it's weird how your own farts smell more engaging than anyone else's?
Evading paying taxes is a good thing? Well no.
Paying taxes is one thing, and of course it is necessary. Extra value is extracted by printing more and more money. USD used to be backed by gold, but they took that away. In addition to corrupt governments extracting value by printing more and more currency, counterfeitters also do the same. Bitcoin fixes both of these issues. There is absolutely no reason why Bitcoin and taxes can't coexist.
Furthermore, with bitcoin we can electronically transfer exactly how much value we want to without having to trust every single vendor with our credit/debit card numbers. Have you ever had to cancel a card because of fraudulent spends? Well, millions of Americans do every year and this also doesn't happen with Bitcoin. You send exactly how much you want to, you don't hand indefinite access to your funds to every single vendor to sell your information or steal from you whenever they want. In the last 2 weeks I've had over $400 stolen from my debit card because of this idiotic system.
Even if you live under a genocidal regime?
Yes, because infrastructure, subsidies, education and social spending still need to happen and not paying your taxes will erode those things long before they stop a genocide. If you don't care about getting in trouble with your government, there are more effective things that can be done.
So you’re arguing it is moral to pay taxes even if you are North Korean? Interesting.
Our citizens pay taxes out of pure love and devotion to our Dear Leader. We don't have room for your silly Western moralities.
There was promise for people in Argentina livig under extreme inflation but I never heard it go anywhere.
Look closer, it's saving lives down there.
I'm from Argentina, if you can pass me some articles I'd love to read them. It's something I've been interested in
Traditionally clever Argentinians have used USD to escape the collapsing currency, but over the last couple of years, there has been a massive shift to doing this with Bitcoin and some stablecoins. Personally, I would just go for Bitcoin, but I do understand that there is less variance with stablecoins, so they may be a bit more practical for some people. Here is an article that goes into this.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-19/bitcoin-gains-dim-argentines-dollar-refuge-with-276-inflation?embedded-checkout=true
This is such a good point.
On the other hand, scams rarely last 16 years.
No clue how long scams usually last, but famous ones easily last multiple decades, though funny how unclear if is when the scam started:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoff_investment_scandal?wprov=sfla1
Madoff was hidden. Bitcoin is out in the open.
I think "bubble" could be a better description. Bitcoins bubble pops regularly every 4 years.
Yeah I don’t believe in smartphones, I just have one. I don’t believe in crypto, I acknowledge it’s pointless.
It’s not pointless. It was invented for a very good reason. You’ll find out one day. It’s a shame it’s been co-opted the way it has.
Well, on the other hand, it's still there after 16 years....
For all the reasons that crypto is a scam, every "value" stock - stock which does not now, and never has any intention of ever paying dividends - is also a scam.
Behind a value stock is a profitable company. Behind crypto-tokens is a hilariously inefficient database with no application in real life.
Gamble away your money, I'll take the stock - or "have fun staying poor" like crypto-token morons like to say.
The owner of a privately held company receives those profits. The owner of a value stock does not: the company profits do not transfer to the stockholder. The shares of the company do not entitle the holder to any part of the business. The "value" of those shares are only that other people want them as well.
Without the possibility of dividends to convey the profits to the shareholders, the profitability of the company is entirely irrelevant. The only "value" of a value stock is its desirability to other people.
A value stock means it's undervalued compared to its fundamentals or "cheap". It has nothing to do whether or not the company pays dividends.
The difference to garbage like crypto-tokens is that there actually are fundamentals - a profitable company you're buying a share of and for a cheap price. Of course there's risk involved but you are likely to profit from this.
Much more likely anyway than any crypto-token gamble because there's no value underneath, only wasted energy; and yes, also with PoS or whatever - it's all inefficient compared to a conventional database behind the firewall of a trustworthy organization. Your trustlessness rethoric is the actual lie behind this huge scam.
A company in which the owner receives nothing from the business operation is not a "profitable" company. Where the shareholders do not receive dividends, and have zero expectation of ever receiving dividends, the business operations of the company are divorced from the value of the share. From the perspective of the shareholder, there are no profits to consider.
The actual "fundamentals" of such a share is nothing more than the faith that someone else will want to buy that share for more in the future, and the only reason that second person has to buy it in the future is the belief that a third person will buy it later.
That is exactly the same "fundamentals" as crypto; the same "fundamentals" as a ponzi scheme.
This is pointless. You don't even seem to know what profit and value are exactly, much less how the letter is increased.
But ok, gamble away your money for worthless crap if you believe it's the same as owning non-distributing value stock (lol). I'm not an altruistic economics teacher trying to stop you hurting yourself.
I can point to any number of companies whose stock has proven to be worthless crap. It is the same type of gamble for both. Neither have any value arising from business operation. The value of a cryptocoin and the value of a zero-dividend share arise solely and entirely from investor faith.
But what about all the real valuable assets these companies would have these days? Like the multitude of 5 year old PCs, 1990s era Hermann-Miller office furniture, the buildings and land they lease... /s
Its almost like both the stock market and crypto are bullshit, whoduv thunk it?
It’s almost like money isn’t real.
I didnt say that, money is real because its backed by a source be it government or otherwise. Having a currency has a rather obvious use case, having a liquid form of exchange to represent wealth is useful and eases things. Hell it doesnt even have to be paper or metal, it could be bullets, bottlecaps, seashells, or be rocks.
Money is real in exactly the same way that zero-dividend shares are real, or that cryptocurrency is real.
The difference is that the government can freely adjust the value of money, and anyone can create shares. Cryptocurrency can only be generated per the conditions of an algorithm.
Yes but also no, what im trying to say is that currency is in and of itself real. Real currencies are backed by something be it metals, food, water, military, or the entire fucking economy of a region or nation. Cryptocurrency is only backed by hopes dreams and energy wasting mathematical formulas, also I can use a 20 dollar bill practically anywhere in exchange for goods I cant use a crypto wallet or some shit in many places.
It is real because the people who use it believe it is real. Same goes for zero-dividend stocks, crypto, Yu-Gi-Oh cards, Beanie Babies, etc. The difference between currency and any ofbthese others is only in the number of people involved.
You can point to government regulations for money. You can point to SEC regulations for stocks and other securities. I can point to algorithmic scarcity for crypto. And I am sure there are standards that various collector communities deem important. But, the fundamental concept value for any of these others is that the people using it believe it has value.
Common trade goods within a barter arent necessarily a currency. Bronze wasnt a currency during the bronze age, mostly because currency wasnt invented yet. Every item you listed isnt a currency they are valuable trade goods at best, currency needs a general degree of universal acceptance, I couldnt go into say a grocery store and pay for my food with yugioh cards, beanie babies, or zero dividend stocks the same applies to crypto.
To use these goods in a trade one must generally convert them into a useful trade form say USD. Just cause they are valuable doesnt mean anyone will use them as a currency, sure you may get the occasional place that does but yet again near universal acceptance is an important factor.
On a similar note Russian Rubles arent a currency outside of Russia since they are worth less than monopoly money. Similarly the currency of Joshua Abraham Norton could be considered a pseudo currency in parts of San Francisco during his lifetime, mind you it was because Norton was funny and kind of a meme celebrity but hey it was accepted.
Your comments about Emperor Norton and the Ruble demonstrate my point. The value of these currencies is entirely in the minds of the people using them. None of the items I mentioned have any significant intrinsic value. Their value is to the community that uses the .
I was not suggesting that any of these items was a currency, merely that they derive their value in the same way that currency does.
Okay now I get what youre saying, but I will say that the Russian Ruble is backed by the Russian state which is far from doing healthy. The backing of these items is based often times on peoples opinions, but say USD is still backed by the government and more specifically the military and economy as well. Just cause its esoteric doesnt mean its not real. The backing maters not the form it takes.
There are plenty of places I can take you where your $20 bill isn't worth the paper it's printed on. There is nothing particularly special about a dollar bill that makes it fundamentally different from any other intangible object.
Again, the only difference is the size of the community that shares the belief. The dollar has a much larger user base than crypto. Crypto has a much larger user base than the Albanian Lek.
Except, you know, the stock being tied to ownership in a company that sells real goods or services. Definitely problems with how stocks are traded, but they’re quite different from crypto.
That's the scam: without dividends, or at least the reasonable prospect of dividends, it is not tied to the company in any tangible way. Shareholders benefit only from speculation by other investors, and not from actual business operations.
Almost. If you own a share of a company, you own a share of something fungible, namely literal company property or IP. Even if the company went bankrupt, you own a sliver of their real product (real estate, computers, patented processes). So while you may be speculating on the wealth associated with the company, it is not a scam in the sense that it isn’t a non fungible entity. The sole value of crypto currency is in its speculative value, it is not tied in theory or in practice to something of perceptibly equal realized value. A dividend is just giving you return on profit made from realized assets (aforementioned real estate or other company property or processes), but the stock itself is intrinsically tied to the literal ownership of those profit generating assets.
Everything you just said is only true for stocks that pay dividends now, or may pay dividends in the future.
It is not true for companies with zero intention of ever paying dividends.
Historically, when that happens, the creditors walk away with the assets. The shareholders get nothing.
That's the scam. It's not. In practice, the sole value of a zero-dividend stock is the speculative value.
Electricity has value. Crypto value is intrinsically tied to mining costs. Even if you have access to a free source of power like your own solar panels, you have to weigh the cost effectiveness of mining against the revenue from using your panels to backfeed the grid, selling power back to the power companies.
Because crypto is tied to something of utilitarian value, and zero-dividend stocks are tied only to the whims of investors, the stocks are actually a significantly greater scam than the crypto.
Lolok