this post was submitted on 16 May 2024
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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 21 points 6 months ago (2 children)

The whole conspiracy theory started with a claim of millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”.

However, this claim is completely absurd when you stop and think about it even for a minute. That figure 1 million is repeated again and again. Let's just look at how much space would you actually need to intern one million people.

This is a photo of Rikers Island, New York City's biggest prison. The actual size of a facility interning ten thousand people.

According to Wikipedia, "The average daily inmate population on the island is about 10,000, although it can hold a maximum of 15,000." Let's assume this is a Xinjiang detention camp, holding ten to fifteen thousand people. How many of these would it take to hold one million people?

Let's do some math:

Rikers Size Rikers Prisoners One Million Uyghurs Size
413.2 acres (0.645 square miles) 10,000 to 15,000 43 to 64 square miles

In reality, one million people would probably take more space; all the supposed detention camps we see are much less dense than Rikers.

For comparison, San Francisco is 47 square miles. Amsterdam is 64 square miles. You'd literally need detention camps that total the size of San Francisco or Amsterdam to intern one million Uyghurs. It'd be like looking at a map of California. There's Los Angeles. There's San Diego. And look, there's San Francisco Concentration City with its one million Uyghurs.

Literally visible to the naked eye from space.

CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals. Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn't even make sense from logistics perspective.

Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he's the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I'm talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.

Zenz is a born-again Christian who lectures at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”

Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. “I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”.

Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.

Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.

The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it's clear that the methodology of his "research" doesn't pass any kind of muster when examined closely.

It's also worth noting that there is a political angle around the narrative around Xinjiang. For example, here's George Bush's chief of staff openly saying that US wants to destabilize the region, and NED recently admitting to funding Uyghur separatism for the past 16 years on their own official Twitter page. An ex-CIA operative details US operations radicalizing and training terrorists in the region in this book. Here's an excerpt:

US has been stoking terrorism in the region while they've been running a propaganda campaign against China in the west. In fact, US even classified Uyghur separatists as a terrorist group at one point https://www.mintpressnews.com/us-was-at-war-uyghur-terrorists-now-claims-etim-doesnt-exist/276916/

Here's an interview with a son of imam killed in Xinjiang https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-06-19/Son-of-imam-assassinated-in-Kashgar-s-2014-mosque-attack-speaks-out-RqNiyrcRuo/index.html

Here's an account from a Pakistani journalist who has been all over Xinjiang (which borders Pakistan) claims that western media reports on "atrocities" are lies. https://dailytimes.com.pk/723317/exposing-the-occidents-baseless-lies-about-xinjiang/

It's also worth noting that the accusations originate entirely from the west while Muslim majority countries support China, and their leaders have visited Xinjiang many times.

Also notable that whenever western media actually deigns to visit Xinjiang, which is not often, they're unable to produce support for any of their claims of mass imprisonment and oppression, so they opt for insinuations instead https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-china-health-travel-7a6967f335f97ca868cc618ea84b98b9

There's a further list of debunking here if you're interested https://redsails.org/the-xinjiang-atrocity-propaganda-blitz/

The whole thing is very clearly a propaganda blitz that US is cynically using to manipulate impressionable people in the west.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The whole conspiracy theory started with a claim of millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”. However, this claim is completely absurd when you stop and think about it even for a minute. That figure 1 million is repeated again and again. Let's just look at how much space would you actually need to intern one million people.

Based on the article you linked from quartz, I think you may be misconstruing the claim of 1 million people in detention. The article seems to suggest that the potential million people have been through the process of work or education camps, not that there are a million people actively held in detention at the same time.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 11 points 6 months ago (1 children)

There is no evidence for such claims either though.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Technically anecdotal evidence is evidence, but it must be weighed as such, and is not conclusive unless supported with verifiable data. But, that's kinda besides the point.

I was merely pointing out an issue with your methodology, not the overall argument.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 11 points 6 months ago (1 children)

These are claims as opposed to evidence though, and these claims must be weighed against actual evidence and contrasting claims. For example, plenty of people from all over the world have been to places like Xinjiang, and there are plenty of local people who speak about this.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

These are claims as opposed to evidence though, and these claims must be weighed against actual evidence and contrasting claims.

Yes the 1 million thing is a claim, which is "supported" by anecdotal evidence. Which as you say needs to be weighted against negating evidence, and can be dismissed by contrasting anecdotal evidence.

Again, not trying to attack your overall argument, just pointing out a problem within the framework of your negation. Mostly because you seem like a person who might care about that.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Fair, I'm just noting that the anecdotal evidence itself is not actual evidence. Like if you saw a documented car crash and from that started extrapolating that car crashes are very common, that's using anecdotal evidence. If you had somebody come to you and say there are a lot of car crashes happening, that's just an unsubstantiated claim. I'm saying that what you refer to as anecdotal evidence doesn't even live up to that standard.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 0 points 6 months ago (1 children)

anecdotal evidence itself is not actual evidence.

I would say that's a semantic dispute.

Like if you saw a documented car crash and from that started extrapolating that car crashes are very common,

The incorrect application of logic in this scenario is still making a claim drawn on too little evidence, not an inherent problem with the evidence.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It's not a semantic dispute it's a very important difference. Anecdotal evidence means that something factually happened, but we don't know whether it's statistically significant or not. On the other hand, hearsay is information that's received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate, a rumor. Trying to conflate these two things is disingenuous.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee -1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Anecdotal evidence means that something factually happened, but we don't know whether it's statistically significant or not.

I don't believe that's what anecdotal evidence means. Anecdotal evidence is generally understood to be information based on personal observations.

Hearsay is reporting what other people attest to have observed. Logically and legally they are weighted the same. There is no logical difference between trusting what someone says, and believing what someone says someone said.

I think we are having a misunderstanding of what evidence means. Evidence isn't something that supports reality, it support your argument or theory. There may be anecdotal evidence that a million people are in encampments, but that just means someone reported it. It's not good evidence, and can be dismissed as easily as someone reporting the opposite. However, it is technically defined as evidence.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Again, you're conflating two different things here. Evidence and hearsay are simply not the same thing. There is a big logical difference between something that's a verifiable a fact and and assertion. The accusation of a million people being held in encampments is the latter. There is no evidence anecdotal or otherwise to support the assertion. Furthermore, legally speaking, both anecdotal evidence and hearsay have zero value if you really want to go down that route.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee -1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Again, you're conflating two different things here. Evidence and hearsay are simply not the same thing.

I'm not conflating the two, I'm saying hearsay is a type of evidence, it's just not a very good one. You can use hearsay to support your overall claim, but that can't be the only peice of evidence you use. It's not transferrable unless attached to a greater body of evidence.

There is a big logical difference between something that's a verifiable a fact and and assertion.

Yes, hearsay and anecdotal evidence are not proof that something happened. They are a claim that something happened.

There is no evidence anecdotal or otherwise to support the assertion.

We've just made the whole circle again. I think you may be accidentally conflating the meaning of evidence with the meaning of proof. Perhaps English is your second language?

"Proof is a fact that demonstrates something to be real or true. Evidence is information that might lead one to believe something to be real or true."

Furthermore, legally speaking, both anecdotal evidence and hearsay have zero value if you really want to go down that route.

That is what I have been saying the entire time.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It's clear that we have a very different definition for what the word evidence means. I don't think this discussion is productive at this point. Have a good day.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee -1 points 6 months ago

It's clear that we have a very different definition for what the word evidence means.

My friend, I am not trying to be argumentative. I am simply trying to improve your ability to logically frame an argument.

If I wrote a scientific paper and claimed one piece of evidence was enough to prove my theory I would be laughed out of academia.

Have a good day.

You as well.

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