this post was submitted on 20 Apr 2024
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Talking about the "initial fault" in this conflict is moot. We're at a point, where both sides can reasonably point to some events in the past and blame the other side for the conflict.
Fact is, Iran is a theocratic dictatorship and its allies are religious fanatic militias, while Israel is a liberal democracy, supported by pretty much all of The West™. Of course the expectations towards Israel regarding human rights and international law are slightly higher. And let's be honest, what Israel is doing right now is certainly not helping calming the situation, or even making long term peace.
Man Israel has more than 5 million people under an occupation that denies them any and all human rights. They're not a liberal democracy in any stretch of the word.
Israel is an authoritarian state, they throw people in jail for disagreeing with the government, or just being Palestinian / Muslim.
authoritarian, apartheid, theocratic, genocidal and willing to start world war three over looking bad
Iran is authoritarian and theocratic, and the people there don't love that.
I feel like one of these things is worse than the other. indefensibly, past the fucking moral event horizon, 'kill them all and then shoot the bodies to make sure they're dead' levels of worse.
world war three isn't, like, acceptable. theres no defense for that sjit, especially with some of the military hardware they now have.
lol "liberal democracy". they're as homophobic and more transphobic. they're howling fascists that make the Nazis look like noobs (learning from history I guess. in a the worst ways). they don't have virtue.
but iranisnt trying to start world war three, and they aren't trying to do a genocide, so theyre the sensible allies here.
unless you want a global thermonuclear war. then by all means; back the Zionist terror forces.
I don't know if I fully buy that argument.
If somebody supports Israel, they are supporting a genocide based on perceived land needs of the Israeli people.
If somebody supports Palestine, they are supporting a genocide based on the outright extermination of the Jewish people, funded by Iran and Qatar.
I don't think we can get anywhere unless all of us as leftists acknowledge that the Jews of Israel will be in the same position the people of Palestine are in right now if we don't thread the needle of support and guess what? We are not fucking threading that needle.
What? No significant player in Palestine is trying to do that.
equivocating 'the Jewish peolle' with kapo genocide orcs doing 'protocols of the elders of zionc larp is antisemitic as fuck. what do you expect from a bunch of literal Hitler apologists though?
If we pretend the "elected" government of Palestine is in significant than sure.
Uh... Hamas has tried to make peace with Israel before. Multiple times. Including two attempts to hand over Gaza to the PA and start peace negotiations. Israel has refused all of them.
Hamas killed all the PA in Gaza after the takeover in 2006. when did they ever attempt to give gaza back?
So first, "Hamas killed all the PA in Gaza" ignores that it was the PA trying to overturn the result of democratic elections. Not saying Hamas didn't do fucked up things either, but let's not forget how it happened.
That said, there were many efforts for reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah. You'll notice a theme of Israeli opposition to all of these.
nothing like throwing people off of roofs to show how democratic you are
israel being against reconcilliation does not effect hamas, they did it because they wanted to.
so...when did they try to give it back multiple times?
Israel was literally funding Hamas in order to drive a wedge between Palestinians and stop chances of a unified leadership arising. Netanyahu admitted to as much. It is an Israeli media source, inb4 muh bias.
the real reason he bribed them was to buy quite to appear as someone who is "strong against terorrism"
about the funding, so i guess hamas had no choice but to murder people in order to recieve more money. after all its not like they recieve millions in aid from all over world, the only funding is bibi so he gets to tell them how to act and who to kill
Funding from "all over the world" doesn't quite slap the same as funding from your nemesis. While Hamas may not receive play by play instructions from Israel, it cannot be denied that they were allowed to thrive to act as counterweight to more moderate elements and viewed as "an asset" (Smotrich's words in 2016) to keep Palestinian unity movement divided fighting amongst themselves. This worked fairly well too until recent events, whereby Netanyahu and his like were able to benefit politically by waving the boogeyman of their own making instead of making a genuine effort at peace.
so despite having ulterior methods of funding, hamas killing their opposition is because of Israel approved Qatari payments. despite the payments being made a **decade **after the violent takeover? did the money go back in time and change the election results?
they were allowed to thrive because Israel left Gaza and let them sort it out. if you look back to 2005, you will see that israel (along other western countries) openly supported fatah over hamas. from wiki(emphasis mine):
compare to the PA in the same time(still wiki,emphasis mine):
According to the IISS, the June 2007 escalation was triggered by Hamas' conviction that the PA's Presidential Guard, loyal to Mahmoud Abbas, was being positioned to take control of Gaza. The US had helped build up the Presidential Guard to 3,500 men since August 2006. The US committed $59 million for training and non-lethal equipment for the Presidential Guard, and persuaded Arab allies to fund the purchase of further weapons. Israel, too, allowed light arms to flow to members of the Presidential Guard. Jordan and Egypt hosted at least two battalions for training
you can find many other instances of Israel supporting PA over hamas over the years. by the time bibi allowed funding to flow to hamas they had unquestioned military and civilian control in gaza.
Israel isn't the one rejecting the cease fire right now.
Uh... They are? Hamas has stated what they consider an acceptable ceasefire by listing their bare minimum "if we don't get this there's no point" demands and Israel keeps rejecting them. It's Israel refusing to compromise here.
Also you ignored my reply.
Uhm... No.
Hamas rejected the last ceasefire because they won't hand over 40 hostages.
At least keep current of the news if you are pretending you care.
How does that contradict what I said?
If Hamas cared about their people (they don't. That has been clear for 20 years), they would accept a cease fire, which only requires they give back the hostages.
Again, they've been very clear why they're rejecting the ceasefire. A temporary ceasefire "extended into something more enduring" is a bold-faced lie by Biden, as shown in the first ceasefire.
Why are you trusting the words of terrorists hiding in a Qatari skyscraper instead of standing with their people and leading the fight?
Hamas keeps rejecting the ceasefire because they are fighting a propaganda war, and dead Palestinians is the way to do it.
You do realize Hamas has Gaza leadership too right? Both have different roles.
Your response to the claim of them being terrorists is that some of them have other roles?
Jesus.
What the... You're not even making sense anymore.
You guys don't have to engage with me, unless its like a quota thing that needs to be hit.
uh, not the Jewish people. I support Palestine, and I'm not down for killing the guy who runs the donuy shop, or the guy at the deli, or even two of my ex girlfriends.
equivocating 'the Jewish people' with 'israel' is blatantly antisemitic and potentially genocidal. stop.
I don't believe you truly didn't understand what I said. I think you just wanted to tell the person concerned about antisemitism that he is the true antisemite.
You will be blocked if you try that on me again. So please either try good faith dialog in your next response or don't bother responding.
they're not concerned about antisemitism if they're equating Jewish identity with a genocidal fascist apocalypse cult that draws protocols of the elders of Zion fan art on everyone's maps.
well, not in the direction one would hope they're concerned.
You were told you would be blocked if you didn't stop playing that game.