this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
539 points (87.8% liked)

Asklemmy

43968 readers
1220 users here now

A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions

Search asklemmy πŸ”

If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!

  1. Open-ended question
  2. Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
  3. Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
  4. Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
  5. An actual topic of discussion

Looking for support?

Looking for a community?

~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev -1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Implicit multiplication is also multiplication

There's no such thing as implicit multiplication. The answer is 1.

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I don't know what you're on about with your distributive law thing. That just states that a*(b + c) = a*b + a*c, and has literally no relation to notation.

And "math is never ambiguous" is a very bold claim, and certainly doesn't hold for mathematical notation. For some simple exanples, see here: https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1024280/most-ambiguous-and-inconsistent-phrases-and-notations-in-maths#1024302

[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev -2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

That just states that a*(b + c) = ab + ac

No, The Distributive Law states that a(b+c)=(ab+ac), and that you must expand before you simplify.

For some simple exanples,

Examples by people who simply don't remember all the rules of Maths. Did you read the answers?

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Please learn some math before making more blatantly incorrect statements. Quoting yourself as a source is... an interesting thing to do.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributive_property

I did read the answers, try doing that yourself.

[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev -2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Please learn some math

I'm a Maths teacher - how about you?

Quoting yourself as a source

I wasn't. I quoted Maths textbooks, and if you read further you'll find I also quoted historical Maths documents, as well as showed some proofs.

I didn't say the distributive property, I said The Distributive Law. The Distributive Law isn't ax(b+c)=ab+ac (2 terms), it's a(b+c)=(ab+ac) (1 term), but inaccuracies are to be expected, given that's a wikipedia article and not a Maths textbook.

I did read the answers, try doing that yourself

I see people explaining how it's not ambiguous. Other people continuing to insist it is ambiguous doesn't mean it is.

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

About the ambiguity: If I write f^{-1}(x), without context, you have literally no way of knowing whether I am talking about a multiplicative or a functional inverse, which means that it is ambiguous. It's correct notation in both cases, used since forever, but you need to explicitly disambiguate if you want to use it.

I hope this helps you more than the stackexchange post?

[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev -1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

If I write f^{-1}(x), without context, you have literally no way of knowing whether I am talking about a multiplicative or a functional inverse, which means that it is ambiguous

The inverse of the function is f(x)^-1. i.e. the negative exponent applies to the whole function, not just the x (since f(x) is a single term).

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 2 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

You can define your notation that way if youlike to, doesn't change the fact that commonly f^{-1}(x) is and has been used that way forever.

If I read this somewhere, without knowing the conventions the author uses, it's ambiguous

[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev -2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

You can define your notation that way if you like

Nothing to do with me - it's in Maths textbooks.

without knowing the conventions the author uses, it’s ambiguous

Well they should all be following the rules of Maths, without needing to have that stated.

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Exactly! It's in math textbooks, in both ways! Ambiguous notation, one might say.

[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev -2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Exactly! It’s in math textbooks, in both ways!

And both ways are explained, so not ambiguous which is which.

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

Yeah, doesn't mean that you know what an author is talking about when you encounter it doing actual math

The notation is not intrinsically clear, as any human writing. Ambiguous, one may say.

[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev -2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

The notation is not intrinsically clear

It is to me, I actually teach how to write it.

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

We've been at this point, I'm not going to explain this again. But you weren't able to read a single sentence of a wikipedia article without me handfeeding it to you, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I'm sorry for your students.

[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev -2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

a single sentence of a wikipedia article without me handfeeding it to you

And I told you why it was wrong, which is why I read Maths textbooks and not wikipedia.

I’m sorry for your students

My students are doing good thanks

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Apparently you can't read either textbooks or wikipedia and understand it.

Also, wait, you're just a tutor and not actually a teacher? Being wrong about some incredibly basic thing in your field is one thing, but lying about that is just disrespectful, especially since you drop that in basically every sentence.

[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev -2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

you’re just a tutor and not actually a teacher?

Both - see the problem with the logic you use?

Let me know when you decide to consult a textbook about this.

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I'm not using logic in this case, you are just being insincere. Let me know when you bother to try to understand anything I or the authors of your holy textbooks wrote.

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 2 points 8 months ago (1 children)

If you read the wikipedia article, you would find it also stating the distributive law, literally in the first sentence, which is just that the distributive property holds for elemental algebra. This is something you learn in elementary school, I don't think you'd need any qualification besides that, but be assured that I am sufficiently qualified :)

By the way, Wikipedia is not intrinsically less accurate than maths textbooks. Wikipedia has mistakes, sure, but I've found enough mistakes (and had them corrected for further editions) in textbooks. Your textbooks are correct, but you are misunderstanding them. As previously mentioned, the distributive law is about an algebraic substitution, not a notational convention. Whether you write it as a(b+c) = ab + ac or as a*(b+c) = a*b + a*c is insubstantial.

[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev -3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

If you read the wikipedia article

...which isn't a Maths textbook!

also stating the distributive law, literally in the first sentence

Except what it states is the Distributive property, not The Distributive Law. If I call a Koala a Koala Bear, that doesn't mean it's a bear - it just means I used the wrong name. And again, not a Maths textbook - whoever wrote that demonstrably doesn't know the difference between the property and the law.

This is something you learn in elementary school

No it isn't. This is a year 7 topic. In Primary School they are only given bracketed terms without a coefficient (thus don't need to know The Distributive Law).

be assured that I am sufficiently qualified

No, I'm not assured of that when you're quoting wikipedia instead of Maths textbooks, and don't know the difference between The Distributive Property and The Distributive Law, nor know which grade this is taught to.

Wikipedia is not intrinsically less accurate than maths textbooks

BWAHAHAHAHA! You know how many wrong things I've seen in there? And I'm not even talking about Maths! Ever heard of edit wars? Whatever ends up on the page is whatever the admin believes. Wikipedia is "like an encyclopedia" in the same way that Madonna is like a virgin.

but you are misunderstanding them

And yet you have failed to point out how/why/where. In all of your comments here, you haven't even addressed The Distributive Law at all.

Whether you write it as a(b+c) = ab + ac or as a*(b+c) = ab + ac is insubstantial

And neither of those examples is about The Distributive Law - they are both to do with The Distributive Property (and you wrote the first one wrong anyway - it's a(b+c)=(ab+ac). Premature removal of brackets is how many people end up with the wrong answer).

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Let me quote from the article:

"In mathematics, the distributive property of binary operations is a generalization of the distributive law, which asserts that the equality x*(y+z) = x*y + x*z is always true in elementary algebra."

This is the first sentence of the article, which clearly states that the distributive property is a generalization of the distributive law, which is then stated.

Make sure you can comprehend that before reading on.

To make your misunderstanding clear: You seem to be under the impression that the distributive law and distributive property are completely different statements, where the only difference in reality is that the distributive property is a property that some fields (or other structures with a pair of operations) may have, and the distributive law is the statement that common algebraic structures like the integers and the reals adhere to the distributive property.

I don't know which school you went to or teach at, but this certainly is not 7th year material.

[–] SmartmanApps@programming.dev -1 points 8 months ago (1 children)

which clearly states that the distributive property is a generalization of the distributive law

Let me say again, people calling a Koala a Koala bear doesn't mean it actually is a bear. Stop reading wikipedia and pick up a Maths textbook.

You seem to be under the impression that the distributive law and distributive property are completely different statements

It's not an impression, it's in Year 7 Maths textbooks.

this certainly is not 7th year material

And yet it appears in every Year 7 textbook I've ever seen.

Looks like we're done here.

[–] rasensprenger@feddit.de 1 points 8 months ago

If you don't want to see why you're wrong that's your thing, but I tried. I can just say, try to re-read the math textbook you took pictures of, and try to understand it.