Since when is reading newspapers your government doesn't agree with a right? Since when is communicating with people your government doesn't like a right? Since when is publishing whatever you want a right? Since approximately 1776. It's such an important right that it's literally the first one in the constitution. Because our ability to speak freely and criticize the government is one of the rights that underpins all others. The medium shouldn't matter, speech is speech whether it's an app, website, chat server, newspaper, bulletin board, code, painting, drawing, whatever. If the government can just shut down any medium or venue they don't like because "it's propaganda", that basically closes the door to any open criticism of the government.

We've tried not having those rights for the sake of convenience, expediency, or social pleasantness. Tends to not end well. Ask people in Russia or Iran how that "government gets to dictate where and how you speak" thing is going for them. Insane bootlicking going on in this thread.

[–] borari@sh.itjust.works 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

I mean I’m not saying that this is being gone about the right way or for the right reasons, but when an adversarial nation-state is working to undermine US economic interests within its borders is there really anything wrong with punching back? I personally don’t think so, but I’m fully aware that I’m probably in the minority on this here.

https://twitter.com/lizalinwsj/status/1765615508357779477

(paywalled article from author above https://www.wsj.com/world/china/china-technology-software-delete-america-2b8ea89f)

[+] makeasnek@lemmy.ml -6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

The govt can do anything it wants to punch back so long as it's not infringing on the rights of its citizens. Our plan to stop China from "influencing us" is to... become more like China?

[–] borari@sh.itjust.works 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

If China is going prevent US companies from doing profitable business within its economic borders I don’t see why the US should allow Chinese companies to engage in profitable businesses ventures within its country.

Blocking a company from doing business in the US is not the same as the US Government infringing on citizens rights. The better way to do it imo would be to toss ByteDance on the Sanctioned Entities list and block any US financial institution from servicing their US subsidiary. ByteDance wouldn’t stay in the US market for long if they couldn’t get any ad revenue, then it’s their choice to pull out instead of the US Government kicking them out.

It’s really not an infringement of rights either way though.

[+] makeasnek@lemmy.ml -6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

If China is going prevent US companies from doing profitable business within its economic borders I don’t see why the US should allow Chinese companies to engage in profitable businesses ventures within its country.

They get to do whatever they want because they're a dicatorship. Saying the US government should be allowed to do something "because China does it" is a real slippery slope. 2. We aren't talking about oil extraction or car sales here, we're talking about something which is explicitly a speech platform. They are different.

It's not just a "company" being banned, it's the government telling you that you can't use that companies services for your speech. Imaging the US government banning the The Guardian because it's not owned by US citizens. That's the same thing as banning TikTok because it's not owned by US Citizens. The government has no right to ban newspapers or websites which are otherwise engaging in legally-protected speech. You have a right to hear what they have to say.

[–] borari@sh.itjust.works 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Jesus christ bro you’re insufferable.

They get to do whatever they want because they're a dicatorship. Saying the US government should be allowed to do something "because China does it" is a real slippery slope.

It’s a weird blend of trade war and cyber warfare, but for all intents and purposes it’s a trade war right now. No one was complaining that the US is blocking the sale of H100s in China are they? No.

We aren't talking about oil extraction or car sales here, we're talking about something which is explicitly a speech platform. They are different.

Except it’s not, it’s an ad platform.

It's not just a "company" being banned, it's the government telling you that you can't use that companies services for your speech.

Nope, absolutely incorrect, it is indeed just a company being banned. I don’t think you fully understand what “speech” is, or really who the Constitution applies to. You do realize that the First Amendment means that the government may not jail, fine, or impose civil liability on people or organizations based on what they say or write, right? You also realize that preventing a company from doing business in the US because they’re beholden to an openly antagonistic nation-state is decidedly not the same as banning a company from doing business in the US because of its speech right?

Freedom of speech and the press has literally nothing at all to do with this.

[–] makeasnek@lemmy.ml -5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

Except it’s not, it’s an ad platform.

Right. So if they sell ads on it, it's not a speech platform right? Reddit, not a speech platform? The Washington Post? The Guardian? Lemmy, when lemmy instances start running ads, Not a speech platform? Gmail? Not a speech platform?

Nope, absolutely incorrect, it is indeed just a company being banned.

It's not. This isn't a company that sells cars, they provide an online speech platform. It's my ability to use the speech platform that gets banned in the process. They can ban TikTok from being able to "do business" in the US, that is different from pulling it from the app store or installing a great firewall to prevent US citizens from accessing their site. And frankly, "doing business" has been an inherent part of speech platforms for decades, selling advertising on speech platforms is how they can exist, all the way back to the days of newspapers and radio.

[–] borari@sh.itjust.works 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

or installing a great firewall to prevent US citizens from accessing their site.

Literally no one is suggesting this, but keep firing yourself up I guess.

Right. So if they sell ads on it, it's not a speech platform right? Reddit, not a speech platform? The Washington Post? The Guardian? Lemmy, when lemmy instances start running ads, Not a speech platform? Gmail? Not a speech platform?

It’s not a speech platform, at best it could be loosely defines as “press”. Even if I’m generous and concede that, pretty sure there’s Supreme Court precedent for allowing the government to block the publication and dissemination of foreign press. Also no, Gmail is not a speech platform in this context lol.

It's my ability to use the speech platform that gets banned in the process.

You need to stop picking the things in my comment you want to argue with and ignoring the rest. The First Amendment prevents the government from criminalizing or penalizing you, an American citizen, from engaging in protected speech. It does not prevent them from forcing a foreign company to divest or cease local US operations. Doing so does not infringe on your speech. Infringing on your speech would be something like criminalizing the act of downloading a tiktok apk and using the app after ByteDance was forced to shutter US operations.

You see the difference right? You’ll still be able to use TikTok after the (probably not happening) ban without any criminal or civil liability. If ByteDance says fuck it and geoblocks the US, you still haven’t been blocked from your speech by the US government, you’ve been blocked by ByteDance, and if you felt like suing them in China you could full send it if that was for you.

They can ban TikTok from being able to "do business" in the US, that is different from pulling it from the app store

Ban TikTok from earning any revenue in the US and they will pull the app themselves. Do you think TikTok is a charity or a non-profit or something?

And frankly, "doing business" has been an inherent part of speech platforms for decades, selling advertising on speech platforms is how they can exist, all the way back to the days of newspapers and radio.

Sure, press publications sell ads, no one said otherwise, not really sure what purpose stating the obvious serves. Ultimately, the US government is under no obligation to allow a foreign company to offer goods or services within its borders, regardless of whether it’s a “press” good or service.

To recap:

Banning tiktok does not ban your speech specifically.
As no entity protected by the Constitution is being censored, the government isn’t violating the Constitution.
There is no 3, that’s it. Congress is free to swing the ban hammer.

Unless you think that the Constitution applies to everyone in the entire world, in which case I guess I’ll need to buy some stock in Northrop and Lockheed.

[–] Gabu@lemmy.ml -5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Being a subservient puppy to a state known to employ psyops is a great idea, trust!

[–] borari@sh.itjust.works 6 points 8 months ago

If having a nuanced and often extremely critical opinion is being a subservient puppy, woofwoof I guess?

[–] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 1 points 8 months ago

Reddit, not a speech platform?

No. It's not. And they proved that when they ripped the API away from people who needed it... like all the disabled people using apps.

Reddit bans people CONSTANTLY. There's nothing free speech about it.