this post was submitted on 15 Jan 2024

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Realistically, how can Palestine gain it's freedom? (suppo.fi)

submitted 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) by bartolomeo@suppo.fi to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

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We know what happens with peaceful protests, elections, and foreign interference (and more foreign interference), so how can Palestine gain it's freedom? Any positive ideas are welcome, because this situation is already a humanitarian crisis and is looking bleaker by the day.

Historical references are also valuable in this discussion, like slave revolts or the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, although hopefully in the case of Palestine a peaceful and successful outcome can be achieved, as opposed to some of the historical events above.

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[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 31 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (4 children)

The simple answer is, realistically, Palestine can't do it alone without help. Some other country will have to step up and get involved.

Currently, even the countries who don't necessarily back Israel aren't interested in helping Palestinians, including major Muslim countries in the Middle East.

It could have something to do with the history of Jordanian Civil war, which was a war between the King of Jordan and the Palestine Liberation Organization. Islamic countries like Jordan and Egypt haven't exactly been stellar friends to the people of Palestine ever since. (Whether that position is justified is up to you to decide, I am not here to argue whether it is good or bad.)

So unless things change somehow, they will likely not gain their freedom.

[–] cali_ash@lemmy.wtf 9 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Some other country will have to step up and get involved.

Alternatively/Additionally, some countries need to stop getting involved. Mostly Iran. They have no interest in helping Palestinians either, they just care about removing Israel from the map and will back any extremist groups in the area that does so as well.

[–] bartolomeo@suppo.fi 5 points 10 months ago

Thank you, that is a good answer. I have been wondering why Jordan has been pretty hands-off, I'll have to look into the Jordanian civil war.

[+] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

[deleted]

[–] nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz 4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

There are several reasons why egypt won't help:

The current dictator, Sisi, has effectively thrown away all international influence in exchange for US aid and western intelligence which he uses to surveil the Egyptian population. That's why israel egypt relations are good. It's because he has become the west's bitch
Leaked talks with mubarak and bibi show that bibi wants to displace all Palestinians into sinai, and basically form a new palestine
Egyptians can no longer help Palestinians the way they used to because of increased surveillance by the government, and decreased support. Mubarak used to unofficially condone smuggling weapons and digging tunnels to gaza (whether that's because he wanted to extract more money from the US or because he truly wanted to help is debatable, imo its the former). Sisi does not...
Sisi led a coup against our only democratically elected president, morsi, whose party was the muslim brotherhood. The muslim brotherhood is being cracked down on really hard in egypt with all the big players either executed or thrown in prison. Even supporting them will lead to you being thrown in jail. The brotherhood has alot of support amongst Palestinians, which is why sisi does not want to let them in.

[–] bartolomeo@suppo.fi 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Thanks, I didn't know that. Do you think Morsi was planning to become a dictator?

[–] nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Alot of people are saying if morsi was authoritarian enough he would still be in power. Morsi wouldn't have become a dictator, because he's too naive and believed in the system

Sisi was the leader of mokhabraat (مخبرات) during Mubarak's regime. Basically he ran the egyptian version of secret police, he would lock up (and execute occasionally) Morsi's allies and any others dissenters.

Instead of executing him or sending him to jail. Morsi, who wanted to mend the relationship between factions, promoted him to the minister of defense. A position which he used to coup morsi.

In the 11 months he ruled, Morsi showed no sign of going dictator, doesn't seem like he has it in him. He seemed like a big believer in democracy, but who knows what would've happened.

In other words, he was not planning to do so at the time. Else he would have consolidated military power instead of handing it over to his biggest enemy...

[–] bartolomeo@suppo.fi 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Sorry for all the questions but I have one more- you mentioned he showed no sign of wanting to be a dictator but what about:

In November 2012, Morsi issued a provisional constitutional declaration that granted him unrestricted authority and the authority to legislate without the need for judicial oversight or review. This was a move to stop the Mubarak-era judges from getting rid of the Second Constituent Assembly.[5] The new constitution that was then hastily finalized by the Islamist-dominated constitutional assembly, presented to the president, and scheduled for a referendum before the Supreme Constitutional Court could rule on the constitutionality of the assembly, was described by independent press agencies not aligned with the regime as an "Islamist coup".[6] These issues,[7] along with complaints of prosecutions of journalists and attacks on nonviolent demonstrators,[8] led to the 2012 protests.[9][10] As part of a compromise, Morsi rescinded the decrees.[11] A new constitution was approved by approximately two-thirds of voters in the referendum,[12] although turnout was less than a third of the electorate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Morsi

[–] nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Interestingly enough the arabic wikipedia page doesn't say much about that...

So, for the judicial oversight part. Mubarak had stacked the court with judges that were loyal to him. Morsi knew that they would not approve any new constitution in an effort to slow him down. Basically, they wanted him to go around them in order to poke holes in the people's new democracy.

So morsi diluted their power by freeing executive decrees and the constitutional assembly from judicial review

At the same time, the brotherhood and allies had a 75% majority in parliament, and the secular + coptic representatives felt like they would be steamrolled so they walked out. They couldn't delay making a new constitution till they had a majority because there was a deadline set in place by the temporary constitution.

Meaning that on paper and in practicality, he had supreme power. Which he promised to give back...

We all know how that goes don't we...

Well this time it was different, the president actually did give back ultimate power, after pushing the deadline for forming a new constitution.

Pushing back the deadline contradicts the temporary constitution meaning that it would definitely go to the supreme court. But he got around that.

Morsi then put the new constitution to a public vote, and it gained 60% approval.

As for the protestors and journalist issues, when i clicked on the wikipedia article/source it basically talked about rabaa ( a massacre that happened when the brotherhood was overthrown) and how the same things happened under morsi to his opposition (it did not). It linked to another article where it talks about a morsi speech.

In that speech he called the protestors thugs, and accused them of being paid protestors (this does happen in egypt, and sisi accidentally admitted that it happened when removing mubarak and again when removing morsi. Although i don't think it was a major factor this time).

Basically he did say some shady stuff, but that doesn't mean he is a dictator. I believe that he wasn't on his way to becoming a dictator because he had ultimate power and gave it away in addition to stuff in the other comment

[–] bartolomeo@suppo.fi 1 points 10 months ago

Hey thanks for taking the time to explain all that, I appreciate it.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social -2 points 10 months ago

This 100%.

[–] treadful@lemmy.zip 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Im not satisfied with the responses I’ve been given to my implication that there’s a track record anywhere would be foolish to ignore if they value order and preserving their existing domestic political/governance structures and safety of actual citizens

You may have a decent vocabulary, but this requires a committee of linguists to decide what the fuck you mean by this.

[–] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 6 points 10 months ago

They're saying that Arab nations have a legitimate reason to be concerned about allowing in Palestinian refugees, given that every time a nation has done it, it's sparked civil war, and that this point has not received a satisfying response.

I'm gonna guess English isn't their native language, but luckily, I majored in linguistics.

[–] nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz 2 points 10 months ago

What induced civil war occured in egypt?

[–] BolexForSoup@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

I think its a bit odd that fellow muslim-dominated nations don’t jump at the chance to help their fellow Muslim bretheren and presumably do their duty to their faith

Most Muslims don’t constantly walk around thinking about Islam and embrace every Muslim in the world/share a super strong kinship with all Muslims. That’s like expecting Christians in the US to think of and heavily relate to their fellow Christians in Russia or parts of Africa and open their arms to them when they’re in need. Or hell their Christian brothers and sisters south of the border. I don’t see a lot of camaraderie going on there.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Most Muslims don’t constantly walk around thinking about Islam and embrace every Muslim in the world/share a super strong kinship with all Muslims.

That's true, but to be honest as an Egyptian if the government came up tomorrow and said "we'll go to war with Israel to free our brothers in Palestine" the people would support them. It's just that the government in Egypt is a dictatorship.

[–] BolexForSoup@kbin.social 1 points 10 months ago

I must confess I have not kept up with what is going on in Egypt since probably mid 2010s, like a lot of the world unfortunately. I am long overdue for updating my info

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social -1 points 10 months ago

I think its a bit odd that fellow muslim-dominated nations don’t jump at the chance to help their fellow Muslim bretheren and presumably do their duty to their faith unless my inference is correct and this is not a religous/racial issue so much as geopolitical and sociological issue.

Idk about other Arabs, but at the very least most Egyptians would jump at the opportunity to go and free Palestine from Israeli oppression (or actually do anything other than watch), but the government is allied with Israel. You'll likely see Egyptian policy towards Israel shift drastically if the current regime changes. I imagine it's similar for many Arab/Muslim countries.

[–] salarua@sopuli.xyz -4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

on the other hand, there could be an enemy of my enemy situation, because everyone in the Middle East hates Israel (and for good reason too: not only is Israel run by genocidal fucks, but they stole everyone's land). it's not impossible that Jordan, Egypt, and neighboring countries would gang up on Israel.

[–] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 3 points 10 months ago

it’s not impossible that Jordan, Egypt, and neighboring countries would gang up on Israel.

This has literally already happened. Israel beat them all in six days.