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Those people are going to share some responsibility for the much worse genocide that Trump ushers in, then. They can claim it's not their fault if that happens, but they'll be lying.
The Democratic party will share the majority of the blame.
I won't disagree with that. That doesn't mean helping Trump get elected should win you some sort of good wise citizen award.
The problem is that if you let any political party "take you hostage", even for the best reasons, then you're letting the "terrorists" win (please note the double-quotes; its figuratively speaking, not literally). There are better alternatives to Biden who are not Trump available to run, but the Democratic party establishment won't allow that.
Our vote is a sacred thing. Fellow citizens took bayonets to the chest, and watched their body parts fly apart in different directions on foreign beaches, to protect our right to express our free will via voting. I'm not going to let my/any party manipulate that to their advantage. (There's some historical quote about everybody being damned that I would quote, but can't remember the actual quote at the moment.)
So you're working hard on getting better voting systems in place? Supporting progressive candidates and trying to change all the unfair systems that currently make it impossible for them to get a fair shake? Trying to eliminate the establishment Democrats and replacing them with people who will make things better for the working class, so people won't be driven into the arms of even worse Republican candidates?
Because if you were just sitting back waiting for things to magically become better, and promising to vote for a better candidate in the unlikely event that the current system produces one, that would be terribly irresponsible. And very unlikely to succeed.
(I'm not saying you're not doing those things. I don't know. I also know I'm not doing them either; I'm becoming more and more guilty about my lack of any real action in the face of the truly horrifying things that might be coming to us this year and next if the election goes the wrong way.)
So, I believe you reply is something of a divergence from what we were talking about, but I thought I would respond to it anyways, even though it is derailing from the subject at hand (being forced/guilt-tripped into voting a certain way against our own free will).
Yes, actually. I run the Congress app on my phone, I know the name of my senators and my representative, and I watch how they vote.
I try to be an educated voter by watching videos/shows that aren't exactly fluff entertainment (daily PBS news, Sunday morning news shows, all debates, etc.).
When it comes time to vote I actually research people running for smaller offices like judges, etc.
I take my responsibility as a citizen seriously.
I try to support good candidates, not candidates from any one particular party.
Yes, I do so by supporting and voting for politicians that fight for those changes (like Bernie, etc.).
Well, I'm too old to run for office myself, I'm retired.
But I do make comments on public internet forms, trying to sway people's opinion in the direction towards more positive change, and deal with people who wish to respond back to that in a negative way. Those responses can wear you down after a while.
I've also been to a protest before.
Also now that I'm retired I'm considering doing some volunteer work for candidates that I may think are deserving of my time.
They're small things, but I actually take the time to do them,
Yeah, makes a lot of sense.
FWIW, the divergence I guess stemmed from me saying: Yes, absolutely the bulk of the Democratic party is corrupt. I don't see much of a way it would ever get better other than to try to improve the existing Democratic party. I don't see it so much as, the establishment Democrats holding the voters hostage (although in a sense they are), as much as: As bad as the situation is, helping the Republicans is also going to make things worse, so spending the effort putting real pressure on the Democrats to do better seems more productive than just waiting until election day and then not voting for them.
And yeah, I agree with a lot of your sentiments about wanting to help. Like I say, aside from voting and talking on the internet, I haven't been doing squat. I'm starting to feel pretty bad about that and that I should be doing something.
No the divergence was that your whole previous comment didn't mention the subject of Biden running a second time when the Democratic party clearly doesn't want to vote for him a second time, and how that will affect the vote outcome, and who would be responsible for a loss to Trump.
Instead you replied challenging me/people in general about how active we are in the voting process and what we do to improve the system, our responsibilities.
Well, it truly is the Democratic Party's responsibility to put up someone that people would want to vote for, so if they don't vote, its not the voters fault, its the party's fault.
Overall, I used to think the same way you do, but the problem is that that technique of pressuring via guilt gets reused over and over and over again over the years as a control mechanism. So at some point you just have to push back against it, no matter what the cost, or else you'll never be able to choose your own votes. You can only take so many "hits for the team" before you have to do something about it.
Well for a start be sure to use the Congress app (or equivalent web site) and track/pay attention to how your elected officials vote on things, and hold them accountable (by contacting their office and letting them know, and if that doesn't change things, by changing your vote) for how they vote.
Do research (takes me about twoish hours per election) on people who are on the ballot for those small offices (comptroller, judge, etc.), and make sure you vote in the 'right' ones (aka the ones that fit your preferred world view).
Also, try volunteering from time to time, for people who are running that you think fit what you want to get done in Washington/state office.
And finally, consider running for an office yourself, try it on for size, see how the sausage gets made, etc.
Metaphorically speaking, you got to tend to the Democracy garden, or else the flowers/plants will die.
Preemptively blaming them for the loss that centrist Democrats would prefer to having to abandon support for genocide hasn't changed the situation:
If Biden wants the votes of people for whom genocide is a dealbreaker, he cannot continue supporting genocide.
You are either a completely naive person, or a paid misinformation actor. There is no scenario on earth where Trump is any better for averting genocide. Have you not been paying attention to anything Trump has been saying? You don’t like genocide, that’s great neither do I, but abstaining from voting or voting for Trump is the most childish, foolish thing you can do in this election.
The other poster is correct. If you don’t vote, or vote for Trump, and he wins, you are partly to blame for that. Any future human rights violations are on your hands.
Well it's a good thing I'm not doing that, then. I'm voting for Biden.
Biden should not be supporting genocide. If he wants the votes of people for whom genocide is a dealbreaker, he must cease his support for genocide.
I know you don't want to hear this. But that's not changing the situation.
Then maybe don't jump to conclusions regarding people who also oppose genocide. Maybe don't sling insults and accusations, like so:
You're so keyed up that you're imagining that people who agree with you are part of an international conspiracy.
Bullshit. It's on the parties, for not giving Americans choices on who they can vote for.
No, it’s on the voters for not voting in better candidates. I was all for Bernie until he lost the primary. It sucks that he didn’t make it to the general election, but no way in hell was I going to throw my vote away on a 3rd party candidate. It’s frustrating, I get it, but people need to be realistic with their votes.
The stakes in this election are just too high. Never in my life have we had such a terrifying dictator-wannabe candidate running.
For how many times do people allow themselves to be manipulated, to have their vote manipulated by a party to vote for a party?
And some point you have to say "Enough!", no matter the cost.
If they want my vote, they have to earn it ethically/morally. Putting up someone else besides Biden would do that. Guilt-tripping me to vote for Biden, not so much.
The Democratic party establishment sees that too, but yet, they rather win (and maintain their power) by risking it all, vs allowing a better candidate run in Biden's place. If this country burns, we ALL will suffer, but we ALL won't be responsible for that. The ball is in their court, not the voters.
Good luck in the hellscape that's coming, then. You'll have the comfort of your explanation for why it's not your fault.
It's not going to be my fault; I'm voting for Biden.
That doesn't change the opinion of those for whom support for genocide is a dealbreaker. If he wants their support, he cannot continue to support genocide.
If centrists want to win, they need to get used to the idea that they might not always get every single thing they want. Biden may need to do something centrists don't like and cease his support for genocide.
It's not our fault because we didn't vote for Biden in the 2020 primaries. The selfish pieces of shit who did decided to fuck over progressives and leftists and now you're all mad because you can't count on us in the general? Pound sand. Stop electing procorporate trash in the primaries.
Are you under the impression that I didn't vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary? Because I did. I'm not one of the pieces of shit who fucked him over. I don't like them any more than you do.
You need to realize that there may not be a primary or general election for you or I to vote or get fucked over in for quite some time if Trump wins. If that happens, it'll be your fault, and I'll just have as much right to be mad at you as you seem to be at me right now.
Refusing to vote for Biden in the general is going to help nobody except the absolute worst and most antidemocratic of the procorporate trash. If you want to do that, you're helping them, in conjunction with the people who fucked you and me over in the primaries.
No we won't. We didn't want Biden in the first place. The blame lies with every piece of shit who voted for him in the 2020 primaries.
Blame can be shared. If Trump wins, it's partly the DNC's fault yes, and obviously a lot of the fault is Trump's, and also it's partly yours, if you help him get elected through inaction.
Buddy, the people who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries specifically to fuck over progressives and leftists knowing full well they hated his guts are at fault. You can't assign blame to me without assigning blame to them as well.
So say it now: People who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries are selfish pieces of shit.
Who are these people in your imagination? Like I know people want good things, and I hate them I'll vote for bad things on purpose argbglglbgbgg. On the Republican side that exists to a certain extent yes; I know a bunch of people who did vote for Biden and not one of them is evil like that in their motivation. In the results? Yeah, maybe.
I think Biden is a center-right rich white guy, and a progressive candidate would be way better. But I don't think people voting for him are actively trying to wreck everything; they're just misinformed. Is this idea that they did it specifically to fuck over leftists, what is it based on?
I do assign blame to them also, yes. The Democrats electing center-right corporatists who don't really look out for the working class is a huge part of the problem. But I also assign part of the blame to you, if you're (through inaction) actively helping the end of the world come to the US because you didn't get your way.
Give me one good reason to vote for Biden over all other candidates in the primaries.
"Because he's more likely to beat Trump; genuinely center-left candidates e.g. George McGovern or Jimmy Carter tend to get beat real bad in elections in the US, largely because our news media is so committedly right-wing."
I'm not saying I'm saying that, especially specifically as concerns Bernie Sanders. But people who aren't totally evil could believe that.
In other words: They intentionally voted against progressive and leftist efforts.
Those people can go fuck themselves.
No, they voted for progressive and leftist interests, just like you did. If Bernie had won they'd have voted for him, because they're mature enough to try to make things better in reality, the best that they see it, which may be flawed. At least, that's how people I know who voted for Biden in the primary behave.
Again, if you have a game-plan for how to make the Democrats a better party, then all this that I'm saying doesn't apply. If, however, your plan is just to help the Republicans until the existing Democratic establishment just wakes up one day and decides to turn away from the corporate money that's sustained them all this time, then you're helping the Republicans.
I think this conversation has started to go in circles, so I may bow out after this bit. But that's my take on it.
Buddy, your reading comprehension could use some work.
They voted against center-left candidates (progressives and leftists) in favor of a centerist like Biden. These people are fighting against us and I say again: They can go fuck themselves.
Yeah, after expecting progressives and leftists to carry garbage procorporate candidates over and over and over they fucking better.
I'm not voting for Biden again. Stop electing procorporate trash in the primaries.
Voting for someone who (in their minds) can win the general election, as opposed to voting for someone who (in their minds) will lose to Trump, is advancing leftist interests.
Would you disagree with that?
Wait... wait. I worry what you just heard was: (Something else). What I said was: Would you disagree with that exact statement?
Some of the people I'm thinking of have volunteered with the Democrats on behalf of were-too-leftist-to-get-elected candidates. And again, they'd vote for your candidate in the general election, because once the field is narrowed to two choices despite their efforts to advance a more leftist choice, they'd rather have the better option over the worse one, and they're responsible enough to try for the better of the remaining options (and then go back to working for something better than that in the future).
Sounds to me like you're fighting against them.
You can’t argue with these people. They’re going out of their way to prove a point that will ultimately get Trump elected.
I know. I'm probably going to quit after the most recent message. IDK, I wanted to try to talk some sense into the person, because it's important.
Maybe they're a shill, or maybe sincerely think they're doing something good for progressives with that stance. Either way I feel like putting the counterargument out there is a good thing to do. But yeah now it's just a merry-go-round of back and forth.
I’m half tempted to just bail on Lemmy entirely. This place is so overrun with teenaged socialists that are determined to destroy what little chance democracy has just because they don’t understand what’s going on and chose to buy into MAGA propaganda.
You and me both 😃. I unsubscribed from a bunch of the tech subs and political subs because the rate of aggressive cluelessness was so unbearable. I do like the model that Lemmy supports, but I actually switched to mbin specifically because it's able to interact with Mastodon a lot more effectively, and my observation has been that the people on Mastodon are by and large about 10 times more sensible.
I love this description! It’s perfect.