this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2025
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Science Memes

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[–] Admetus@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 day ago

Initially I thought 4x4 square but this is a square of 4.675 sides. Reasonable. Clever maths though.

[–] Serinus@lemmy.world 184 points 3 days ago (2 children)

With straight diagonal lines.

[–] bleistift2@sopuli.xyz 75 points 3 days ago (1 children)
[–] pyre@lemmy.world 49 points 3 days ago

hey it's no longer June, homophobia is back on the menu

[–] davidgro@lemmy.world 23 points 3 days ago (4 children)

Why are there gaps on either side of the upper-right square? Seems like shoving those closed (like the OP image) would allow a little more twist on the center squares.

[–] superb@lemmy.blahaj.zone 24 points 3 days ago

I think this diagram is less accurate. The original picture doesn’t have that gap

[–] 1rre@discuss.tchncs.de 12 points 3 days ago (1 children)

there's a gap on both, just in different places and you can get from one to the other just by sliding. The constraints are elsewhere so wouldn't allow you to twist.

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[–] bitjunkie@lemmy.world 16 points 2 days ago (5 children)

It's important to note that while this seems counterintuitive, it's only the most efficient because the small squares' side length is not a perfect divisor of the large square's.

[–] jeff@programming.dev 10 points 2 days ago (2 children)

What? No. The divisibility of the side lengths have nothing to do with this.

The problem is what's the smallest square that can contain 17 identical squares. If there were 16 squares it would be simply 4x4.

[–] Natanael@infosec.pub 14 points 2 days ago

He's saying the same thing. Because it's not an integer power of 2 you can't have a integer square solution. Thus the densest packing puts some boxes diagonally.

[–] bitjunkie@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

And the next perfect divisor one that would hold all the ones in the OP pic would be 5x5. 25 > 17, last I checked.

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[–] 9point6@lemmy.world 152 points 3 days ago

Oh so you're telling me that my storage unit is actually incredibly well optimised for space efficiency?

Nice!

[–] janus2@lemmy.zip 79 points 3 days ago (1 children)

if I ever have to pack boxes like this I'm going to throw up

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[–] Psaldorn@lemmy.world 52 points 3 days ago

You may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like.

[–] a_party_german@hexbear.net 61 points 3 days ago (3 children)
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[–] Squalia@sh.itjust.works 41 points 3 days ago

Here's a much more elegant solution for 17

If there was a god, I'd imagine them designing the universe and giggling like an idiot when they made math.

[–] fargeol@lemmy.world 45 points 3 days ago (4 children)

Bees seeing this: "OK, screw it, we're making hexagons!"

[–] raltoid@lemmy.world 31 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Fun fact: Bees actually make round holes, the hexagon shape forms as the wax dries.

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the line of man is straight ; the line of god is crooked

stop quoting Nietzsche you fucking fools

[–] LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml 39 points 3 days ago (7 children)

Can someone explain to me in layman's terms why this is the most efficient way?

[–] tiramichu@sh.itjust.works 145 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (7 children)

These categories of geometric problem are ridiculously difficult to find the definitive perfect solution for, which is exactly why people have been grinding on them for decades, and mathematicians can't say any more than "it's the best one found so far"

For this particular problem the diagram isn't answering "the most efficient way to pack some particular square" but "what is the smallest square that can fit 17 unit-sized (1x1) squares inside it" - with the answer here being 4.675 unit length per side.

Trivially for 16 squares they would fit inside a grid of 4x4 perfectly, with four squares on each row, nice and tidy. To fit just one more square we could size the container up to 5x5, and it would remain nice and tidy, but there is then obviously a lot of empty space, which suggests the solution must be in-between. But if the solution is in between, then some squares must start going slanted to enable the outer square to reduce in size, as it is only by doing this we can utilise unfilled gaps to save space by poking the corners of other squares into them.

So, we can't answer what the optimal solution exactly is, or prove none is better than this, but we can certainly demonstrate that the solution is going to be very ugly and messy.

Another similar (but less ugly) geometric problem is the moving sofa problem which has again seen small iterations over a long period of time.

[–] DozensOfDonner@mander.xyz 24 points 3 days ago (4 children)

Lol, the ambidextrous sofa. It's a butt plug.

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[–] GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org 24 points 3 days ago (2 children)

It's not necessarily the most efficient, but it's the best guess we have. This is largely done by trial and error. There is no hard proof or surefire way to calculate optimal arrangements; this is just the best that anyone's come up with so far.

It's sort of like chess. Using computers, we can analyze moves and games at a very advanced level, but we still haven't "solved" chess, and we can't determine whether a game or move is perfect in general. There's no formula to solve it without exhaustively searching through every possible move, which would take more time than the universe has existed, even with our most powerful computers.

Perhaps someday, someone will figure out a way to prove this mathematically.

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[–] Devadander@lemmy.world 19 points 3 days ago (8 children)

Any other configurations results in a larger enclosed square. This is the most optimal way to pack 17 squares that we’ve found

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[–] NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Why doesn’t he just make the square bigger? That’d be more efficient.

[–] EddoWagt@feddit.nl 2 points 2 days ago (2 children)

That's not more efficient because the big square is bigger

[–] NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone 1 points 1 day ago

See, that’s the problem with people nowadays?They want to minimalise everything.

They should just slow down and breathe.

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 1 points 1 day ago

I think people have a hard time wrapping their heads around it because it's very rare to have this sort of problem in the real world. Typically you have a specific size container and need to arrange things in it. You usually don't get to pick an arbitrary size container or area for storage. Even if you for something like shipping, you'd probably want to break this into a 4x4 and a separate single box to better fit with other things being shipped as well. Or if it is storage you'd want to be able to see the sides or tops. Plus you have 3 dimensions to work with on the real world.

[–] wise_pancake@lemmy.ca 21 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Is this a hard limit we’ve proven or can we still keep trying?

[–] chuckleslord@lemmy.world 36 points 3 days ago (2 children)

We actually haven't found a universal packing algorithm, so it's on a case-by-case basis. This is the best we've found so far for this case (17 squares in a square).

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[–] rockerface@lemmy.cafe 33 points 3 days ago

It's the best we've found so far

[–] selokichtli@lemmy.ml 20 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Do you know how inspiring documentaries describe maths are everywhere, telling us about the golden ratio in art and animal shells, and pi, and perfect circles and Euler's number and natural growth, etc? Well, this, I can see it really happening in the world.

[–] peteypete420@sh.itjust.works 12 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Is this confirmed? Like yea the picture looks legit, but anybody do this with physical blocks or at least something other than ms paint?

[–] deaf_fish@midwest.social 9 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

It is confirmed. I don't understand it very well, but I think this video is pretty decent at explaining it.

https://youtu.be/RQH5HBkVtgM

The proof is done with raw numbers and geometry so doing it with physical objects would be worse, even the MS paint is a bad way to present it but it's easier on the eyes than just numbers.

Mathematicians would be very excited if you could find a better way to pack them such that they can be bigger.

So it's not like there is no way to improve it. It's just that we haven't found it yet.

[–] crmsnbleyd@sopuli.xyz 8 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Proof via "just look at it"

[–] CheeseNoodle@lemmy.world 10 points 3 days ago

Visual proofs can be deceptive, e.g. the infinite chocolate bar.

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[–] SpongyAneurysm@feddit.org 5 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Now, canwe have fractals built from this?

[–] Lemmisaur@lemmy.zip 17 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Say hello to the creation! .-D

(Don't ask about the glowing thing, just don't let it touch your eyes.)

[–] SpongyAneurysm@feddit.org 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Good job. It'skinda what I expected, except for the glow. But I won't ask about that.

[–] BowtiesAreCool@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago

The glow is actually just a natural biproduct of the sheer power of the sq1ua7re

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