Surprise, surprise. Yet another accusation turns out to be an admission. Colour me shocked.
this post was submitted on 15 Jan 2024
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What's surprising is, they actually admitted they found it, rather than dragging out a report until nobody cares anymore
It's three years later. How much longer could you drag this news out?
Oh.... you have no idea....
They're still claiming they didn't steal 2000 from Gore
I've seen people rant about Obama like Biden doesn't even exist yet and confusing 22A as Obama "losing" and his re-election a big threat.
I'm not even from the US and I know this isn't a thing. Outside of pure monarchy rules, there's not many countries out there without term limits.
Canada doesn't have a term limit...
That's monarchy rules. The head of state technically is King Charles.
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there's that. But also, like... how many investigations got started by the SEC and then suddenly never reported on? and not like "well we didn't actually find anything" reports that just got closed out, but still-open investigations that just never get closed?
Or the EPA, or the FCC, FTC. IRS. Congressional ethics committee types, too. toss in the rest of the alphabet soup regulatory bodies here, too.
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I could be misremembering, but I feel like I remember them admitting it in Arizona, too.
Every conservative accusation is actually a confession.
Just a reminder, they are actively trying to steal this phrase right now.
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“We know you cheated because we cheated and lost so that means you cheated better than us”
Best explanation of projection for this that I’ve seen
"Do you know how I see that you ate them three by three? When I ate two by two and you were silent." Lazarillo de Tormes (1556).
I read that in White Goodman‘a voice.
“Ball me Blazer!”
The GOP; Gaslight, Obstruct, Project.
Abandon any quantifiable substance, merely control the narrative.
Power for powers sake. Absolute power corrupting absolutely.
Most republicans don’t actually care about cheating as long as it benefits them. Republicans didn’t say shit when Bush Jr got elected by hook and crook.
Especially since 2 recent supreme court appointees were involved is the legal crap to overturn Florida
Plus Roberts makes three in total.
Let me reiterate that: an entire third of the current Supreme Court worked in furtherance of a successful Republican coup 24 years ago.
And Kavanaugh was one of the lawyers who was investigating Clinton in one of the most obviously politically-motivated independent counsel investigations in modern history
Dude was pushing Q Anon theories before it was cool
Kavanaugh also argued in favor of investigating the suicide of Vince Foster, the White House deputy counsel, even though two prior investigations had already concluded that his death was a suicide.
Most republicans don’t actually care about ~~cheating~~ anything as long as it benefits them. FTFY
That's the most honest Republican probe yet.
Republicans will never stop trying to steal elections.
I mean, that's pretty bad in itself. You'd think for a national election someone could find programmers able to make formats match and catch errors properly.
What were you guys voting on anyway? MySpace bands?
The UK has humans count pieces of paper with X next to candidates names.
It's pretty cheap and it works really well.
And it's really hard to mess with the thousands of votes needed to swing an election because that's a lot of paper.
Republicans were against that in 2000, I imagine they still are
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It should be paper and humans. I know the comic is meant to be funny, but it is accurate.
Am software engineer, can confirm
It's not that easy... There's a bunch of proprietary systems, each adapted to dozens of specific regulations.
Id say every 200 lines or so of code you make a mistake. Sometimes you hit the wrong key, sometimes you have a brain fart, sometimes there's some complex interplay that leads to occasional issues.
A good programmer catches like 90% of them. Giving time for self-testing catches another few percent. A rock solid design with high automated test coverage might cut mistakes by a factor of 10. Add in great qa (a low paid role with low status and easily cut for profit) and you might get 90% of whatever is left
There's no perfect code, and if you have to interface with another company jealously guarding their own implementation? They might give you a sample file and a short format definition. Is it correct? Can everyone read the spec and come away with the same understanding? Is there room for a bad actor to put their finger on the scales?
It's just beyond human capability to write perfect code, even in the perfect environment. And the ideal solution is redundancy - ideally you'd have like 5 teams running very different software in parallel for each vote and count, and you'd debug any situation where they don't all agree and recount.
But that would be ungodly expensive and politically impossible... There's room to do better, but there's no money in it
There's a bunch of proprietary systems
interface with another company jealously guarding their own implementation
See, this is dumb. Not you, I mean. Program to format text documents and automate office paperwork, sure. I prefer TeX but YMMV. But how do you commercialise voting? Oh, "it's America". I guess.
There was a good Tom Scott that pointed out the problem of electronic voting is not just the reliability and trustworthiness of the systems, but the transparency for ordinary people to know it's trustworthy.
You can't achieve that perfectly with computers - not even with paper - but it's important. Obviously to me, that would mean having the system open source, with closed (for extra security) extra measures for auditing. I understand them not doing that, but the government not wanting the voting software and systems to be fully open to government? That just blows the mind ...though I kind of expected it.
As to redundancy and lack of bugs, there are some impressive programs out there by people who've got what it takes to make things very precise from formal definitions and so on (cf some of the Functional Programming community, amongst others, and certain un-bloated well-defined security things). Does the American government not have access to such people? Did they spend all their money on TV shows so they've none left for good programmers? And tallying election votes is not really the most elaborate of tasks, more one that needs formally defining very carefully. No ML professors left over from the dark ages who can write a formal spec as a PhD? How about all those NSA lot who are supposed to be able to make spyware so clever it slips between the cracks in Apple phones? I suppose that's a field more of try lots of things and hope some work, but still.
Sorry, rant over ;-)
The source being open doesn't mean you can tamper with it. It means you can see it (in this case).
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Hard agree... It's sheer madness.
There's two huge problems though. Requirements for voting machines are created by people who don't understand technology, which means we have a ton of arbitrary rules for how they work. Likely largely written by voting machine manufacturers trying to create barriers of entry
Second... There's programmers who write really good code, and there's programmers who think flawless code is possible for humans. There's no overlap.
If you encounter a programmer who thinks they can write flawless code, they've never released anything to the public.
The thing is, humans cannot handle the full problem space of anything more useful than a calculator. The being that can do that is to a human as we are to a cicada.
We envision how it will work, we test it with that bias, and we hand it to someone who sees the world very differently and they instantly break it.
I don't know why I keep coming across this opinion on lemmy lately... But let's use the example of key crypto libraries, I think it's just about the best example you could give.
I agree, they're pretty damn rock solid. They're based on math, with pre designed inputs and outputs. We trust it so much that the first thing we tell a programmer that needs to encrypt something "NEVER roll your own". The entire world is based around it, we trust everything to it.
Pick a crypto library and look at their security patches. They've been broken mathematically, they've been broken due to typos, they've been broken due to hardware interactions or assumptions about the amount of computing power we think will be feasible in the next decade.
We know they're defeatable.
The reason why we trust them so much isn't because they're flawless, it's because they're constantly under a spotlight. There's a lot of money and reputation to be gained across several fields just devoted to this one issue.
We trust them, because we can't do better.
Voting machine software is terrible, and we could do much better - simplification of requirements, parallel implementations from isolated teams looking for discrepancies, standardizing the requirements (worldwide even), review by unrelated subject matter experts... Hell, we should be using them for everything from grade school elections to stockholder votes, and posting huge bug bounties. They should be open source from top to bottom - the second rule of security is "security through obscurity is obfuscation, and obfuscation isn't security"
There's a ton we could do to make it better, but most every bug is a wild edge case - the recent investigation results in Virginia suggest it works correctly more than 99.9991% of the time. Let's call it 99.99% to account for anything undiscovered
There's no way a new project does better than that - this was human error due to being confused over the district borders... New software isn't going to fix that
The only way to get down to single digit margin of errors is to deploy it widely and frequently, add in more redundancy, and patch the crazy edge cases as they come up.
And most importantly, we need to simplify the problem and look at the human elements
Redundancy and mitigation is all there is.
Fun fact, we discovered that cosmic rays flip bits at a predictable rate on every modern computer because of a voting machine showing impossible results... We can mitigate even that with redundancy and error checks, but the only way to approach perfection is to reduce single points of failure and learn by proactively looking for the holes to patch
4,000 total.
Donald Trump overcount: 2,327 votes
Joe Biden undercount: 1,648 votes
Just under a 4,000 vote swing.
Biden won the contest statewide by more than 450,000 votes.
"find the votes"
"WAIT, NOT LIKE THAT"
I believe the old American adage applies well here, "who ever smelt it delt it*
Stunning to who, at this point? Nobody should be stunned by any of this.
I read the "stunning" as sarcasm, but who knows at this point.
sTuNnInG
Stunned that they owned up to it and didn't bury the result
You know what? In that context, I guess I am stunned.
That can’t be the headline. It is.
Ah the irony
The reporting errors were presumably a consequence of the results tapes not being programmed to a format that was compatible with state reporting requirements. Attempts to correct this issue appear to have created errors. The reporting errors did not consistently favor one party or candidate but were likely due to a lack of proper planning, a difficult election environment, and human error.
wut?
results tapes not being programmed to a format that was compatible
Tapes? Not drives or discs? I mean, even punch cards makes more sense than this (if it's one card for one ballot).
It's understandable to be surprised, but tapes are not an obsolete technology. They are still, by-far, the best price value for long-term data storage. particularly for storing backups. Guaranteed you use websites or apps that use tapes in their infrastructure, possibly even this one. Give them a google if you're curious.
Tapes are used all the time for data storage, far more than discs.
Just to be clear, they look more like ADAT/VHS cassettes than they do those big spools of reel-to-reel you see in movies with old mainframes. Pretty sure the only people who use those tapes anymore are the computer museums with working examples on display.
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