this post was submitted on 08 Jul 2023
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[Facebook federation megathread] Downvote this post if you want lemm.ee to federate with Threads. (Updated) (lemm.ee)
submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by sunaurus@lemm.ee to c/meta@lemm.ee
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Context

There have been a lot of posts and comments recently about Facebook entering the fediverse, and how different instances will handle it. Many people have asked me to commit to pre-emptively defederating from Threads before they even implement ActivityPub.

The lemm.ee federation policy states that it's not a goal for lemm.ee to curate content for our users, but we will certainly defederate any server which aims to systematically break our rules. I want to point out here that Facebook makes essentially all of its money from advertising, and lemm.ee has a no advertising rule - basically, Facebook has a built-in financial incentive to break our rules. ActivityPub has no protections against advertising, so it's likely we will end up having to eventually defederate from Threads just for this reason alone.

However, I would still like to get a feel for how many people in our instance are actually excited for potential federation with Threads. While personally I feel that any theoretical pros are by far outweighed by cons, I do want to use this opportunity to see how much of the community disagrees with me. I am not intending to run this instance as a democracy (sorry if anybody is disappointed by that), but I would still like to have a clear picture of user feedback for potentially major decisions such as this one. This is why I am asking every user who wants lemm.ee to federate with Facebook to please downvote this post.

Here are some reasons why I personally believe that Threads will have a negative effect on the fediverse

  • As mentioned above, Facebook is completely driven by ad revenue. There is nothing stopping them from sending out ads as posts/comments with artificially inflated scores, which would ensure that their ads end up on the "all" page of federated servers.
  • Threads already has more users than all Lemmy instances combined. Even if their algorithms don't apply to the rest of the fediverse directly, they can still completely dictate what the "all" page will look like for all instances by simply controlling what their own users see and vote on.
  • Moderation does not seem to be a priority for Threads so far, meaning that they would create massive moderation workloads for smaller instances.
  • In general, Facebook has shown countless times that they don't have their users best interests in mind. They view users as something to exploit for revenue. There are probably ways they are already thinking about hurting the fediverse that we can't even imagine yet.

By the way, we're not really in any rush today with our decision regarding federation

  • Threads does not have ActivityPub support yet today
  • Even if they add ActivityPub support, their UX is geared towards Mastodon-like usage - it seems unlikely that there would ever be proper interoperability between Threads and Lemmy
  • We don't really know what to defederate from - it's completely possible that "threads.net" will not be their ActivityPub domain at all.

So go ahead and downvote if you feel defederation would be a mistake, and feel free to share your thoughts in the comments! It would be super helpful to me if folks who are in favor of federating with Threads could leave a comment explaining their reasoning.

Update:

By now, it's clear that there is a group of users who are in favor of federating with Threads. The breakdown is like this (based on downvotes):

  • lemm.ee users: 136 in favor of federating with Threads
  • Others: 288 in favor of federating with Threads

While it seems to be a minority, it's still quite a few users. There is no way to please all users in this situation - any decision I make will certainly inconvenience some of you, and I apologize for that.

A big thanks to everybody who has shared opinions and arguments in comments so far. I think there are several well written comments that have been unfairly downvoted, but I have personally read all comments and tried to respond to several as well. I will keep reading them as they come in.

The main facts I am working with right now are as follows:

  • The majority of lemm.ee users are strongly opposed to immediately federating with Threads
  • Facebook has a proven track record of exploiting users (and a built-in financial incentive to do so)
  • We currently lack proper federation/moderation tools to allow us to properly handle rule breaking content from Facebook

Considering all of the above, I believe the initial approach for lemm.ee should be to defederate Threads, and then monitor the situation for a period of time to determine if federating with them in the future is a realistic option

In order to federate with them, the following conditions would need to be fulfilled:

  • There needs to be actual interoperability between Threads and Lemmy
  • Threads needs to prove that they are not flooding instances with rule-breaking content (mainly ads and bigotry for lemm.ee)
  • There needs to be a mechanism to prevent feed manipulation by Threads algorithms (potentially this means discarding all incoming votes from Threads)

Note: this is an initial list, subject to change as we learn more about Threads.

Again, I realize this approach won't please everybody, but I really believe it's the best approach on a whole for now. Please feel free to keep adding comments and keep the discussion going if you think there is something I have not considered.

all 15 comments
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[–] user_already_exists@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Please follow lemmy.ml and stand up to the big guys and defederate in whatever form it comes. This is a chance to finally stand alone from the Mega corps and have some peace and quiet.

[–] speaker_hat@lemmy.one 6 points 1 year ago

Peace and quiet is so rare in social media these days, that is so not obvious that we somehow have it here

[–] Anemervi@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] minorsecond@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago

Looks like I chose poorly with mastodon.social. I really don’t want to have to switch instances at this point.

[–] Reverendender@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

What does N/A signify? And does allow mean they are federating?

[–] RaincoatsGeorge@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 year ago

Preach! There’s a good opportunity here to keep this space free from the greedy hands of a bunch of rich assholes. People are so eager for there to be a ‘new twitter’ but haven’t even raised one question about whether threads has fundamentally addressed the problem that has lead to the downfall of twitter and Reddit. Meet your new boss, same as the old boss. Why the hell should we keep just hoping that some billionaire ceo will do what’s right. Even if that ceo does the right thing, they will eventually be replaced.

There can be a place on the internet free from capitalist exploitation for profit. Communities can exist solely for the sake of the community. Not every goddamn thing needs to be monetized. Send a clear message that past tactics will not fly here.

[–] gravityowl@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

EDITED: After initially misreading the post, I'm actually very glad that I just joined an instance where the majority of people is so against Facebook and their scummy business.

[–] MortyMcFry@aussie.zone 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If you don’t defederate we might as well go back to reddit. I don’t want to see posts from instagram accounts

[–] rm_dash_r_star@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

Exactly, if we want them in our space why put up with the growing pains of the Fediverse, just go to them and forget Lemmy, Mastodon, etc. We need to be our own space or why exist at all. As said before, if you want their content just go to their sites.

[–] Stillhart@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

Hell no. I came to Lemmy to get AWAY from the corporate overlords.

[–] NightOwl@lemmy.one 1 points 1 year ago

I think like a lot of people the reason I'm putting up with the growing pains of a decentralized network, the fragmentation of communities that come with it, and sync issues across instances is because we want to try something that isn't run by corporations that views users as something to sell off to the highest bidder. If I wanted to deal with a centralized large user base why wouldn't I just skip this whole fediverse thing and go straight to Meta or reddit or Twitter or tiktok that is way more user friendly? I'm not here because I want another reddit clone that ends up being run or is influenced by another billionaire asshole down the line.

[–] ghariksforge@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have a lot of friends on Twitter who are now migrating to Threads. They are not going to come to the Fediverse no matter how much I annoy them. Federating with Threads will allow me to interact with them.

Also if the Fediverse works with Threads, a few of those people might come over.

[–] redshadowhero@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

Federating with threads leads to the same issue that happened to google talk years ago - it once embraced the XMPP protocol, meaning anyone could set up an XMPP server and immediately start chatting with other XMPP users or google talk (or facebook chat, now that I think about it). This was amazing because if you had gmail, you suddenly had in-browser access to a lot of friends. I remember some friends way back then talking to me about getting a regular jabber account because it would be so easy to just use that. I also remember soundly rejecting that idea because "Why would I do that when I can already chat with you?"

The problem was that Google decided that XMPP wasn't sufficient for their needs and started to extend their internal implementation. Suddenly if you were on "regular" XMPP you were a second-class citizen. There were times when you couldn't connect cleanly to google's XMPP implementation and it created problems (admittedly, some of these problems were with the XMPP protocol, and others were Google deciding to "embrace" XMPP by inventing their own software to interact with it). From my younger and naive point of view it just seemed like my friends who used jabber et al were just running the inferior software/client.

Then, suddenly - Google decides to kill talk and replace the in-gmail version with something else entirely. All those friends I had were just "offline". You couldn't reach them; I also didn't see the need to create a jabber account because of all the perceived difficulties of interacting with them at that point. Some of them gave up and got google talk/hangout/whatever else accounts. Big corporations are pros at killing open source; the example above is just one of many. You can see examples all over the place such at VSCode and how they've been closing up access to their plugins, Apple with the GPL3 change to the open-source software they use, and now Facebook with threads.

You aren't going to be able to convince your friends; they aren't going to move regardless. And if Threads federates and, months/years down the road decides to defederate because they claim to have more content/features/whatever anyway, to all your friends on Threads you'll just go "offline" - and your friends will just wonder why you didn't use Threads in the first place.

[–] DelilahBlack@lemm.ee 0 points 8 months ago

Federate with threads. More exposure and more people