this post was submitted on 03 Jan 2025
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From where I'm sitting, it looks like death should not be the end in that case.

You can't perceive the passage of time when you are dead, so you're just going to experience dying and then immediate rebirth after the countless eons pass for that rare moment where entropy spontaneously reverses to form your mind again.

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[–] RiotDoll@hexbear.net 23 points 1 week ago (1 children)

i think these questions are really uninteresting if you're gonna insist on being purely rational materialist about it, but i think it gets more interesting when you're willing to play with what reality might be a little more. There are religious motifs that repeat in many cultures about the eternal reocurrence. This idea that earth is made and destroyed in countless infinite, repeating cycles.

What if you and I have been going at this for a while?

But if you want the answers science can give right now, probably not

[–] iridaniotter@hexbear.net 15 points 1 week ago (2 children)

What if you and I have been going at this for a while?

Well if none of your memories carry over it's certainly not you anymore.

[–] QueerCommie@hexbear.net 11 points 1 week ago (1 children)

You don’t lose memories as you live this life? Is someone with dementia or amnesia a different person than they were before? Memories cannot be the basis of self, they are not permenant, and are not always referenced, and each new reference creates a new slightly altered version. There is nothing that can be truly called a self in the colloquial sense, just a vague collection of things artificially stabilized. From this basis it is fair to imagine you could experience another life with the same consciousness without many remnants from the past lives.

[–] Collatz_problem@hexbear.net 9 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I'm getting a fresh new consciousness every time I'm waking up.

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[–] RiotDoll@hexbear.net 10 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Do you think so? I think what we are internally isn't fully dependent on memory and reference, there is some element of us that just is, for at least as long as we're alive. Behind your eyes and resting within your interior is a spark of something that has existed continuously since you were born, that little "I" of awareness may never change.

It's always you imo. You can go through mk ultra style brainwashing, lose your sense of identity, find yourself under a new name and with new interests, but between who you were and who you are, are enough commonalities that I would dispute the notion we're just electrical signals in wet gooey meat endlessly referencing the past to navigate the present and anticipate the future - but that's me.

[–] iridaniotter@hexbear.net 12 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I mean what you're describing is an innate soul that cannot be experimentally observed, similar to cissexist metaphysical sex but for broader identity. It's an inferior concept of the self than one based off memories, language use, behavior/activity, and ego-image. I suppose even total amnesia can leave behind subconscious behaviors from prior, but this is "memory and reference," so...

If you're talking about the "I" of continuous stream of consciousness, this can be hijacked by multiple entities and even cut off entirely through dissociative barriers. And arguably it's not of the same quality at a young age anyway.

[–] QueerCommie@hexbear.net 9 points 1 week ago

And you’ve done it. Independently arrived at the truth of no-self. You don’t have to agree, but if the truly discontinuous that is reality can appear continuous, perhaps this consciousness could appear continuous with another life (I am in no way denying the laws of cause and effect).

[–] MF_COOM@hexbear.net 17 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Infinity =/= everything

Even if the universe has an infinite lifespan (unknown) that does not in any way imply any possible outcome will occur. So there is absolutely no reason to expect a body like yours will be recreated. Even if it was, it still wouldn't be you it would be your clone.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 10 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Poincare recurrence is, as far as we understand the laws of the universe, totally possible. If you think of the set of possible states of the universe, the current state it's in is necessarily in that set. Then, because it's a closed system, it necessarily has to come back to that state eventually. The hard part to grasp of how that's physically possible is that, of course, classical thermodynamics tells us that there's an arrow of time that points in the direction of increasing entropy. But looking at statistical thermodynamics, it turns out that it's only the case that it's overwhelmingly more likely that a system, in the macro scale, goes in the direction of increasing entropy. A system spontaneously becoming more ordered is possible, just so very unlikely that it will take a completely unimaginable amount of time to happen. Heat death could reverse itself and little by little build up into a new big bang after silly amounts of time. Like, Tree(Graham's Number) silly.

[–] MF_COOM@hexbear.net 1 points 6 days ago

I didn't say it wasn't possible

[–] QueerCommie@hexbear.net 6 points 1 week ago (1 children)

With scientific premises isn’t it more likely an identical “you” lives the exact same life that you did independently, rather than your consciousness picking up where you left off? Maybe Nietzsche was right, lol.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 5 points 1 week ago

I didn't really get to the topic of consciousness. IMO if poincare recurrence happened, there's no reason to think that the new 'you' would continue your consciousness, it would just be a different person who lives the same life. But we don't know how consciousness works.

[–] cosecantphi@hexbear.net 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Why doesn't it imply that? We can put a number on the chance that particles randomly come together to reform minds. That number is arbitrarily small, but it's not zero, hence why we are considering arbitrarily large time scales.

[–] MF_COOM@hexbear.net 22 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The set of natural numbers (1, 2, 3, ...) is an infinite set, but its infinite nature does not imply that it contains every number (for example, 0.5 is not in the set). Being infinite and being all-encompassing are two different concepts.

It's very possible that the universe will have an infinite lifespan but will never accumulate matter after heat death, they will just continue to spread apart at a rate greater than gravity can gather them.

[–] cosecantphi@hexbear.net 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Right, but we aren't talking about the set of natural numbers, we're talking about the set of ways matter can be distributed in the universe. I know a living me is a possible state in this universe because I exist, so if I can spotaneously form once, why can't I spontaneously form again?

[–] MF_COOM@hexbear.net 14 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I didn't say it couldn't happen, I said a universe in existence for an infinite amount of time does not imply that it would.

But again, like I said earlier even if molecules spontaneously arranged themselves such that a replica of your body is created it still isn't you. It would best be described as a clone of you.

[–] cosecantphi@hexbear.net 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I was thinking that maybe if it's similar enough to my brain, it should just pick up my consciousness from whereever the fundamental of consciousness is stored. Like what happened the first time, right?

That's assuming consciousness is fundamental to the universe and not some emergent thing, I guess.

I know there's an acceptable margin of error here because I can place drugs, foreign objects, inside my head to radically alter the functioning of my brain without losing consciousness or irreparably damaging it.

[–] MF_COOM@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago (1 children)

IDK comrade tbh you kind of stopped making sense to me here. If you think consciousness is some mystical thing that transcends time, space and matter then you don't need probability and thermodynamics to believe you'll live again just embrace the mysticism if it gives you peace.

[–] cosecantphi@hexbear.net 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I don't know what consciousness is, but I can be sure mine exists, and yours too probably.

But it seems pretty inherently mystical to me considering we can't even scratch the surface of researching the how and why we have qualia and subjective experience seemingly disconnected from material reality.

Idk, I took an edible and wanted to poke Hexbear with the idea, it's a fun time!

[–] MF_COOM@hexbear.net 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

I'm saying that's fine, if you want to explain the unknown with mysticism who am I to say otherwise.

I'm just saying if you're using mysticism to explain the unknown you don't need science just by mystical. Either embracing a mystical tradition that believes in this sort of recurrence or creating one for yourself are both cooler than pseudoscience

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[–] TheLepidopterists@hexbear.net 15 points 1 week ago

I don't think given an infinite amount of time the universe would produce an identical me. That's such a specific combination of matter and chemical processes it just feels silly to assume it would happen. Even if I agreed that it would inevitably happen, I think there's an implication that a very large number of almost but not quite mes would also come into existence (because if I understand the premise, it's basically "on a long enough timescale every possible thing will happen") and frankly that's more disturbing than ceasing to exist (which, to be clear, is very disturbing to me).

I'll also say that a clone of me with my memories is still not me. Such a thing could exist simultaneously with me and it wouldn't reduce my desire to personally remain alive even slightly, it's a different guy, but with a lot in common with me.

[–] Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 week ago (3 children)

When you die you turn into a turtle in this guy in new jerseys aquarium hes a really cool dude and takes great care of you don't worry it'll be a blast. He's gonna name you Phil.

[–] Acute_Engles@hexbear.net 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

There's an account on tiktok that gets new reptiles and amphibians all the time and names them fun names and they live in one of the best terrarium setups I've ever seen and i was a reptile guy for a while.

I want to live there please

[–] Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Your gonna be a parrot actually. Like a big ass blue one.

[–] Acute_Engles@hexbear.net 1 points 6 days ago
[–] cosecantphi@hexbear.net 7 points 1 week ago

That sounds heavenly.

[–] ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 week ago

new jersey

Please, no

[–] robot_dog_with_gun@hexbear.net 12 points 1 week ago (2 children)

if you can prove that entropy will reverse please go collect your nobels and so on. i'll watch angela collier's video on it.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 8 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Entropy "reverses" itself literally all the time in micro scales. All entropy means is that the likely states of a system are more likely to occur (when I phrase it that way it sounds redundant to the point of absurdity, but that actually is what it means). If you look at the interface between two identical metal lattices that can exchange electrons, the most likely state is the one where the number of electrons remains the same at both sides of the interface. But at any given time, it's possible for an imbalance to come about and for there to be a few more electrons in one side of the interface. Larger imbalances are less likely, of course, but it would even be possible for all the electrons to move to one side; there's no physical law that says that the system has to keep evolving to become more and more disordered, it's just the most likely thing to occur. For all practical considerations in timespans measured in googol years or less, it's not worth considering this for macro scale systems. But if you want to entertain the notion that time goes on infinitely, googol is a laughably small number.

If you like acollieastro's stuff I think Alpha Phoenix explains the quirks of entropy in a similar way here that you might find to be a better explanation than my comment.

[–] HexReplyBot@hexbear.net 1 points 1 week ago

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[–] cosecantphi@hexbear.net 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Isn't entropy a statistical proccess? Given arbitrarily large time scales, a disordered system can briefly become ordered.

[–] CatoPosting@hexbear.net 6 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Can mixed ingredients become unmixed by mixing more?

[–] cosecantphi@hexbear.net 5 points 1 week ago

With enough time and mixing, I'm sure!

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[–] starkillerfish@hexbear.net 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

i feel like whats missing in this discussion is the effect of quantum mechanics on consciousness. there is some research that shows that randomness introduced by quantum particles can affect synapses, and theoretically consciousness. and I think that even on infinite scales you can't really get the same exact quantum patterns, they will never repeat, or else it wouldn't really be random.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Random things repeat all the time, though.

[–] starkillerfish@hexbear.net 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

for single random events that is true, but you cant consistently get patterns of random events. you cant infinitely flip a coin and get a tail every time.

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 6 points 1 week ago

There's only a finite number of events that would be necessary to make OP's premise happen (well, except for the consciousness transfer part, I don't think there's any rigorous basis for that). If you flip a coin an infinite number of times, you will get any finite sequence of heads and tails an infinite number of times.

[–] iridaniotter@hexbear.net 7 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Real question is if a Boltzmann brain can really even exist or if it's just an antiquated mechanical materialist view on consciousness inconsistent with dialectical materialism.

[–] cosecantphi@hexbear.net 6 points 1 week ago

I wasn't even thinking about the Boltzmann brain scenario, I was just considering the chance that literally everything could reform like this as we take time out to infinity, all slightly different permutations too

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[–] iie@hexbear.net 6 points 1 week ago (1 children)

possibly disturbing existentialismwhen that distant mind forms, eons from now, will you experience it? or will it be a clone with your memories?

what if two identical minds form at the same time, both of which have your memories and thoughts? Which set of eyes will you look out of?

continuity of consciousness is a strange thing

in fact, the "two identical minds" example proves nothing, you could be both of them. A consciousness can be split: for example, if you separate the lobes of a person's brain, put each lobe in a new body, then regrow the missing lobes, you get two people who each can claim they are the original. That person's life seamlessly branched into two lives without interruption.

and what about interruption? does it matter? if you delete a person's atoms for a nanosecond, then restore them, do you have the original or a clone? I doubt we'll ever know. If consciousness can survive a total interruption, if the same life resumes afterward, then I start to wonder if we are all packets of a single consciousness. On the other hand, if consciousness can't survive an interruption, then I start to wonder if we are constantly dying from one instant to the next, a series of clones like frames of a film.

[–] iridaniotter@hexbear.net 9 points 1 week ago (9 children)

A consciousness can be split: for example, if you separate the lobes of a person's brain, put each lobe in a new body, then regrow the missing lobes, you get two people who each can claim they are the original.

Don't even need to separate the lobes, let alone create separate bodies for this.

On the other hand, if consciousness can't survive an interruption, then I start to wonder if we are constantly dying from one instant to the next, a series of clones like frames of a film.

Meh, in real life it's experimentally and experientially identical to consciousness surviving an interruption. This is just like solipsism circle jerking. Use diamat

[–] QueerCommie@hexbear.net 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Agreed with the use diamat. Everything is constantly changing, constantly dying. Hypothetical idealist arguments are silly, it’s understood by quantum physics.

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[–] Catfish@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I've actually thought of this exact scenario before and for selfish reasons I hope it's true, there are many parts of my life I loved and parts that were horribly heartbreaking but I'd do it all again if I could. But that's just me now, will have to see how I feel later!

[–] shath@hexbear.net 6 points 1 week ago

i like to think so

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