this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2023
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Schoolgirls who refused to change out of the loose-fitting robes have been sent home with a letter to parents on secularism.


French public schools have sent dozens of girls home for refusing to remove their abayas – long, loose-fitting robes worn by some Muslim women and girls – on the first day of the school year, according to Education Minister Gabriel Attal.

Defying a ban on the garment seen as a religious symbol, nearly 300 girls showed up on Monday morning wearing abayas, Attal told the BFM broadcaster on Tuesday.

Most agreed to change out of the robe, but 67 refused and were sent home, he said.

The government announced last month it was banning the abaya in schools, saying it broke the rules on secularism in education that have already seen headscarves forbidden on the grounds they constitute a display of religious affiliation.

The move gladdened the political right but the hard left argued it represented an affront to civil liberties.

The 34-year-old minister said the girls refused entry on Monday were given a letter addressed to their families saying that “secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty”.

If they showed up at school again wearing the gown there would be a “new dialogue”.

He added that he was in favour of trialling school uniforms or a dress code amid the debate over the ban.

Uniforms have not been obligatory in French schools since 1968 but have regularly come back on the political agenda, often pushed by conservative and far-right politicians.

Attal said he would provide a timetable later this year for carrying out a trial run of uniforms with any schools that agree to participate.

“I don’t think that the school uniform is a miracle solution that solves all problems related to harassment, social inequalities or secularism,” he said.

But he added: “We must go through experiments, try things out” in order to promote debate, he said.


‘Worst consequences’

Al Jazeera’s Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris before the ban came into force said Attal deemed the abaya a religious symbol which violates French secularism.

“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,” she said.

“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”

On Monday, President Emmanuel Macron defended the controversial measure, saying there was a “minority” in France who “hijack a religion and challenge the republic and secularism”.

He said it leads to the “worst consequences” such as the murder three years ago of teacher Samuel Paty for showing Prophet Muhammad caricatures during a civics education class.

“We cannot act as if the terrorist attack, the murder of Samuel Paty, had not happened,” he said in an interview with the YouTube channel, HugoDecrypte.

An association representing Muslims has filed a motion with the State Council, France’s highest court for complaints against state authorities, for an injunction against the ban on the abaya and the qamis, its equivalent dress for men.

The Action for the Rights of Muslims (ADM) motion is to be examined later on Tuesday.


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[–] Anonbal185@aussie.zone 1 points 2 years ago (3 children)

It's France they're very xenophobic. Just look at how they treat the Corsicans, Brentons, Basques and Catalans.

Night and day to even a few hundred metres across the road in Spain or Andorra.

[–] loutr@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That's rich coming from you, assuming you're Australian :) How are we mistreating them exactly? I live in Nantes, Breton culture is everywhere, street signs are translated in Breton, there are bilingual schools... They don't seem very oppressed to me.

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[–] Armen12@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago

I don't want religion in schools, outside that, you're still free to practice what you want, but keep religion out of education. France got this one right

[–] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 0 points 2 years ago (7 children)

“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”

I was initially torn on this, but as long as it's for all religions, I support it. I firmly believe that I shouldn't know your religion unless I ask. Religion is toxic.

I do think you should have the freedom to wear religious signifiers as an adult. I just don't approve. But I don't want to stop you. Children in school? This is the same (to me) as requiring them to leave their phones at home.

[–] Adkml@hexbear.net 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

I was initially torn on this, but as long as it's for all religions, I support it.

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread

Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there's only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief.

Would you also support a policy that nobody named @some_guy should be allowed to talk, no matter who they are.

[–] usernamesaredifficul@hexbear.net 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there's only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief

there are multiple such as Islam and Sikhism to give two examples. This law is just an example of religious persecution against religions that don't fit in with the French idea of which religions a French person should have

[–] Adkml@hexbear.net 0 points 2 years ago

Your right should have said there's multiple religions it was discriminating against just highlighting how it lines up with Frances history of Islamophobia.

[–] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 0 points 2 years ago (12 children)

The first is a good argument. And I support breaking that law.

The second is a good argument in that I wasn't factoring the requirement (which I kinda don't care about because I reject religion, so I know that I'm wrong even though I reject religion, fuck religion). Were religion not so toxic, I would have more sympathy. In this case, I'm gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.

The third is just silly.

[–] usernamesaredifficul@hexbear.net 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I'm gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.

bruh-moment

can't believe you just said "facing persecution for your religious faith simply don't be a member of the religious minority being persecuted"

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[–] MF_COOM@hexbear.net 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Nobody forces you to live there.

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[–] gnuhaut@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

New criminal offense: Learning while Muslim.

[–] qyron@sopuli.xyz 0 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Only that is not.

Crucifixes and other outter religious symbols are facing the same restriction.

For what reason a particular creed holds such tight restrictions on what garments are considered adequate over others evades.

This is a quite harsh way to impose a rule but it is a fair one. No one is being denied education. This is "keep your beliefs to yourself and do not impose it onto others".

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[–] usernamesaredifficul@hexbear.net 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

what's next sikhs can't wear turbans in school

[–] Harrison@ttrpg.network 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

The law covers that also. All visible religious garments are forbidden.

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[–] sooper_dooper_roofer@hexbear.net 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] uralsolo@hexbear.net 0 points 2 years ago (5 children)

tbf to France I'm pretty sure that if girls showed up in nun habits they would be sent home too. They make you take off visible jewelry if it has a cross on it AFAIK.

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[–] Wahots@pawb.social 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,”

I agree with it, not in the "hah, we are dunking on minorities" way, but just because I'm personally so sick of religion being a part of every waking moment of life and being used as a cudgel to influence public policy, media, and what choices people can make when it comes to important personal choices, such as healthcare. Of course, this is being viewed through my American lens, but we've seen similar erosions in public institutions due to so-called "religious rights" despite being a secular country. While France's version is fairly blunt, it seeks to normalize and equalize everyone, which I think is a decent goal.

If it wasn't religion, I'm positive it would be something else. But I think it's very healthy to maintain separation of religion while at public institutions, particularly in a world where religious extremism is on the rise.

[–] bane_killgrind@kbin.social 0 points 2 years ago (5 children)

France is fairly blunt in most ways.

When you come to live in France, you are french. If you don't consider yourself french, you are just a tourist.

This is my interpretation of the attitude my French friends have.

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[–] Etterra@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago

How much of human stupidity can be boiled down to "I don't like you wearing a silly hat," I wonder.

[–] Anamnesis@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

People should be allowed to wear what they want. That said, nobody should voluntarily wear these terrible symbols of sexism and oppression. The literal religious purpose of the abaya and even the hijab is to promote modesty, with the rationale that men can't control themselves and it's women's responsibility to do that for them. Fuck that message and fuck the ideology that it perpetuates.

[–] electrogamerman@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This is exactly the problem. If men had to cover their bodies, I wouldnt mind it, but because only women have to cover their bodies, it is sexist.

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[–] Gsus4@feddit.nl 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

After looking at what an abaya is and understanding some of the overt and covert reasons for doing this and the reaction, the cool solution would be if abayas (they're really just a loose dress) started to be marketed at everyone, so that anyone could wear them and end this stupid debacle. What do people wear in the west if they don't want people to look at their "curves" anyway? Huge market gap, right there. Or maybe instead of abayas they'll start wearing long trench coats to school, lol.

PS: meanwhile, in SA: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-women-socialmedia-idUSKCN1NL2A1

[–] Armen12@lemm.ee 1 points 2 years ago

"Women in Saudi Arabia have for decades been required to wear the abaya - a loose, all-covering robe - in public, a dress code strictly enforced by police."

And there are still people in here defending this lol

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