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A whole lot of coping in this thread by people who were previously doing a lot of work trying to get Trump elected...
"Nuh uh, Netanyahu said this before and he was going to do it anyway!"
I would say that I worry about their mental health, but fuck them.
The smug liberal leans back in his chair.
"That will show them for not voting properly. If only they had voted. I did my one and only civic duty of voting, and it was for the less bad candidate. They're too busy marching and protesting and organizing to see that the only thing we can all do is vote. If only they voted properly."
It's a fact that Trump will hurt their cause more than Kamala. Protest all you want. But also vote for whatever may help your cause. I don't understand why people don't understand this.
Because utilitarian ethics isn't the be and end all of moral decision making? Elections are just as much about holding people accountable as they are about choosing the utilitarian optimal future policy path.
It is crucial to remember that most of history's greatest atrocities were justified on utilitarian grounds - the greatest good for the greatest many. That's how eugenics was justified. That's how the crimes of the Nazis were justified. That's how the Tuskegee Experiment was justified. And it's how powerful men get away with being sexual predators. ("Yes, he may be a monster, but he's doing important work...")
Utilitarian decision making has its place. But at some point you also have to hold people accountable. And that's what you've missed. Remember, this is the only shot the voters ever got at holding Biden/Kamala responsible for their actions. This is literally the only way we as citizens have of directly holding these people accountable. Protests have their place, but voting is all we get in terms of direct accountability.
What is the point that you would stop using utilitarian ethics and start holding leaders accountable? What crime would be so bad that you wouldn't vote for a leader if you thought their overall policies would be superior to their opponent? Where do you personally draw the line? Because if you have no line...well God help you. Because you are already lost.
While I sympathize with the goal of wanting to hold people accountable, it is the simple fact of the matter that Republicans were THE alternative. This was the wrong decision in this case
-cold utilitarian
While true, I understand why some people choose not to vote or vote third-party. It's like the trolley problem, and genocide is a pretty damn good thing to care about, especially when it's people you identify with getting genocided.
My point was that if liberals joined the left in direct action even outside of elections then our choices would be better in the first place. Voting is the least you can do, and for most rabid Lemmy liberals that go around punching left constantly it's THE ONLY THING they do.
If they joined the left, we'd all be punching back together. Instead they say "it's just a little genocide, the other guy is worse, just hold your nose and vote instead of protesting and taking direct political action so we can all go back to doing nothing for 4 more years. You are the problem for being politically engaged out of the voting booth."
Every step in the right direction is better than taking no steps at all (or worse, taking steps backwards). In this particular instance, and certainty throughout our nation's history, voting for a third party in a race with so much at stake, mathematically will help out one particular candidate over another. This is because USA uses a very flawed system of "first past the post" voting. In this instance, Trump obviously benefitted. Voting is taking direct political action. It's not the only form, but it is arguably the most important form of direct political action in this country. It is the way we make lasting and effective change in this country. You can't just force change all at once. You gotta put in the work.
Edit: I'd also add that I am very much in favor of reforming our voting system. But it must come through the system we currently have. The alternative is violence and chaos, which I am not in favor of.
Every step in the right direction is better than taking no steps at all (or worse, taking steps backwards).
voting DNC is taking no steps at all. it's neoliberal status quo. brutal no-safety rails capitalism, genocide, and war.
. the only time in this country's history where people managed to get meaningful concessions out of the ruling class was when the ruling class was afraid. moments like the New Deal where communists were getting serious consideration. moments like the civil rights era where blacks and anti-war advocates were protesting en mass. moments like like stonewall riots which led to rights for gays.
these are steps in the right direction. voting DNC is pissing against the wind deluding yourself that you can somehow outvote fascism in a democracy
Honestly, I wonder people should start a movement that overtly supports capitulation to and cooperation with China. Start a movement that at least portrays things as being better in China, the people in China actually being freer, that leaders are held accountable, etc. Maybe even overtly say that you wouldn't care if the CCP wholesale took control of the country.
Do I actually espouse or believe any of these things? No. But honestly the ownership class could use a good heart attack once in awhile. Imagine if we had some decent percentage of the population overtly championing Maoism. Suddenly Medicare for All wouldn't seem so extreme, would it?
A general strike would stop project 2025 in its tracks
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he is planning to effectively annex parts of the occupied West Bank in what would be a major - and highly controversial - act.
Israel Is Officially Annexing the West Bank
A quiet bureaucratic maneuver by Netanyahu’s government has begun transferring control over the occupied territory from military to civilian leadership—violating international law.
Here's an entire wiki page about all they've been doing in the West Bank since 1967.
If you think this is new and is only happening because of Trump, you haven't been paying attention and are falling for propaganda.
Yes I'm sure the 4 settlers Biden sanctioned for 3 weeks, definitely threw a wrench into Israel's plan of overtaking the west bank.
It'll totally be because Trump takes office and not because settlers didn't just get 14 months of free land grabbing with zero repercussions on top of their yearly land stealing antics ever since Israel's inception.
Cool, so we can finally dispose the myth of Israel being a democracy, get over chasing the chimera of a two state solution, and crystallize the struggle to the simple, unambiguous goal of ending Jewish supremacy and the apartheid and establishing a democratic republic with equality and rights for everyone from the river to the sea. Cool.
We did it, Patrick! We saved Palestine!
Yay, no more genocide! I knew both sides were the same.
Technically, a successful genocide stops. If the goal was specifically that the genocide would end more quickly, then I suppose they got what they wanted.
Good thing we didn't vote for those democratic genocidists
“I don’t want basic Genocide, I want to evolve to stage 2 Genocidonite”
The "a vote for Kamala is a vote for genocide" people were literally saying before the election that Palestinian genocide cannot get worse because genocide is genocide.
So I guess this isn't worse?
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says he is planning to effectively annex parts of the occupied West Bank in what would be a major - and highly controversial - act.
Israel Is Officially Annexing the West Bank
A quiet bureaucratic maneuver by Netanyahu’s government has begun transferring control over the occupied territory from military to civilian leadership—violating international law.
Here's an entire wiki page about all they've been doing in the West Bank since 1967.
This is nothing new, it's just a next step that would have been taken regardless.
i don't understand that crowd at all. how do you look at kamala's promise to stay the course, and donald trumps promise to send even more aid, and not understand it is possible to send more. there is not a ceiling to more. our military industrial complexeis very capable of delivering more.
and donald trumps promise to send even more aid
"Aid"? Why frame it as Trump promising "aid" like it's a positive? To be clear, the "aid" you're referring to here, is weapons and munitions being used to murder civilians.
Really weird way to frame it.
i don't think it's positive. i think it's horrible. we're assisting in mass torture. but i don't have a better synonym to insert there. i'm open to a better word because words matter
Genocide
"Revive" suggests that this goal was ever dead. Israel has been progressively seizing Palestinian land in the West Bank for half a century.
Revive? When was it dead exactly? They seemed to be going Full Tilt for the last couple years. Nothing was stopping them.
I think we'll all find out exactly what they mean in a couple months.
The “I did this” sticker is getting pretty wide what with Putin, Netanyahu, Trump, Xi, and the American voter all on it.
Israeli settlers never killed the idea.