this post was submitted on 21 Oct 2024
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A Boring Dystopia

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[–] febra@lemmy.world 12 points 2 days ago

Oh, I can't wait for the sympathy piece on Auschwitz guards to drop any day now. They must have seen some very, very, very difficult things too, poor souls.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 13 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Shooting and Crying

Gil Hochberg described "shooting and crying" as a soldier being "sorry for things I had to do." This "non-apologetic apology" was the self-critique model advanced in Israel in many politically reflective works of literature and cinema as "a way of maintaining the nation's self-image as youthful and innocent. Along with its sense of vocation against the reality of war, growing military violence, occupation, invasion, [there was] [...] an overall sense that things were going wrong."

[–] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 7 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Interesting read thanks.

Karen Grumberg noted that "the Zionist soldier, a man with a conscience, loathes violence but realizes he must act violently to survive; the dilemma causes him to weep while pulling the trigger. Looking inward, he despairs at the violence he feels compelled to enact this way because he fears his moral corruption."

Amir Vodka wrote "It typically depicts the IDF in a critical light, as a traumatizer of young soldiers, yet the genre itself is often criticized for turning the assailants into victims, and in a sense allowing the continuation of war under the guise of self-victimization."

[–] masquenox@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

So, basically every war movie the US makes about itself.

[–] masquenox@lemmy.world 36 points 3 days ago (1 children)

They don't seem that traumatized when they are literally filming their own war crimes and posting them on Instagram for all the fascist clicks.

[–] JasonDJ@lemmy.zip 14 points 3 days ago (5 children)

The only way I could rationalize the OG Nazis...trying to get into their head and how they managed to do the things they did...was that they were straight up brainwashed.

It sounded crazy when I was younger. Like, something out of a comic book instead of a history book.

But as I watch and try to critically understand how the modern propaganda machine works, I can't help but wonder if maybe I was right.

[–] SasquatchBanana@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago

OG Nazis experienced the same thing. Killing people on en masse mentally fucks with your head, even if the individuals you kill are perceived as vermin/degenerates. This is why they moved on to using other means that is more dehumanizing i.e. pressing a button for the gas chamber

[–] masquenox@lemmy.world 4 points 2 days ago

Brainwashing is perfectly easy. Just ask the US Marine Corps.

That creepy thing people in the US do, hanging flags in front of their houses? That's brainwashing. That's what it looks like.

That's how easy it is.

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[–] Krauerking@lemy.lol 50 points 3 days ago (1 children)

“So, there is no such thing as citizens,” he said, referring to the ability of Hamas fighters to blend with civilians. “This is terrorism.”

Fuck the IDF

[–] TBi@lemmy.world 23 points 3 days ago

Well when he said “this is terrorism” he was correct. Just that it’s the IDF terrorizing innocent people.

[–] NutWrench@lemmy.ml 65 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, I suppose it was traumatic, bombing food relief convoys and hospitals. You could have avoided a lot of that PTSD by refusing to follow illegal orders.

Also, get farked, CNN.

[–] orcrist@lemm.ee 33 points 3 days ago

My interpretation of this is that some mid-level staffers at CNN pushed the story knowing exactly what was in it. Their bosses wouldn't let them do obvious things, so they got a little subtle.

[–] Fedizen@lemmy.world 35 points 3 days ago

"cop needs therapy after shooting unarmed child"

[–] sOlitude24k@lemmy.myserv.one 24 points 3 days ago (14 children)

Posted this in another thread, gonna post it here, too.

"Looking another human being in the eye, making an independent decision to kill him, and watching as he dies due to your action combine to form one of the most basic, important, primal, and potentially traumatic occurrences of war."

It's an unpopular take, but I recommend everyone read the book "On Killing" by Dave Grossman. It's obvious that what Israel is doing is very much a genocide, but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.

[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 31 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (10 children)

but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.

Sure, but couldn't the same be said for many of the literal guards at Auschwitz? A lot of those people were just kids who were drafted and were simply following orders. Even many of those who were there willingly only did such things after being subject to years of ruthless Nazi propaganda.

At some point, regardless of what circumstances led you to that moment, you become responsible for your own actions. There is no set of circumstances that can make murdering innocent civilians justified. And if you do that anyway, you bear full moral culpability, regardless of what may have happened in your life before that point.

We literally hashed this out during the Nuremberg trials. It doesn't matter what propaganda you were subject to. It doesn't matter how you were raised. It doesn't matter if you were "just following orders." It doesn't even matter if you yourself would face execution for refusing to kill innocent civilians. It is never OK to kill innocent civilians, to perform genocide, or commit ethnic cleansing. If you do that, you deserve to hang for it. Full stop. No excuses.

[–] Jtotheb@lemmy.world 18 points 3 days ago

The Nuremberg Trials are a great example of how you don’t hang if you provide enough value to the military-industrial complex, and a terrible example of full stop no excuses. Seems ill suited to be a foundation for a moral philosophy.

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[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 281 points 4 days ago (6 children)

The last sentence is fucked up. If you're running over hundreds of people how in the fuck do you know they are terrorists. These people are intentionally and knowingly committing war crimes then come back home and cry about how this all made them so sad.

[–] drolex@sopuli.xyz 136 points 4 days ago (1 children)

If the IDF is killing people, then they are terrorists. Not the other way around. You are to be checked for antisemitism/glorification of terrorism. Please report to your nearest IDF bulldozer.

[–] ggtdbz@lemmy.dbzer0.com 32 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Relevant, from a comment I wrote below that is buried under too many other comments:


If going to jail is the penalty for not joining the IDF, it is the moral thing to do and should be worn like a badge of honor. It’s not complicated at all unless you literally have a death penalty for not joining. I don’t care how controversial this is: if as an IDF terrorist you don’t commit a mutiny, desert, or off yourself, congratulations, you’ve net increased the evil in the world.

Sympathizing with the IDF is 1:1 the exact same as sympathizing with the SS and anyone who says otherwise has both fingers in their ears and yelling nanananana until the crunching noises under their bulldozers stop.

You cannot be systematically eradicating a people you consider inferior and also pretend you have any moral high ground. You cannot bomb hospitals and ambulances and homes and schools and pretend like you are the good guy. You cannot set up viewing platforms to have your kids watch the destruction with your own eyes and claim to be the good guy.

Not to make this about me but I’ve been running myself ragged volunteering at the shelters here in a safer part Lebanon and I’m still fucked up over feeling like I’m not doing enough. Rotting at home will make me feel even worse. I went outside for a walk and wanted to throw up, feeling guilty over being able to go outside and walk to destress as people’s homes get carpet bombed more intensely than legitimate military targets. I know damn well that if I lost my own home these shelters are full and I would have literally nowhere to go. And more people are losing their homes every hour. People are fleeing to Syria and Iraq for safety, even as the border crossings are getting hit as well.

This is beyond ”normal” human evil. If any other army was doing this we would have rows of criminals hanging from cranes in The Hague, instead we have to watch them smugly tell us we’re next in a speech from the UN. For the unforgivable crime of being born on land that apparently exists only for colonization.

Do not let anyone lie to you. A Holocaust is happening right now and it is exactly as evil as the one the Nazis committed.

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[–] gex@lemmy.world 116 points 4 days ago

Anyone who runs is Hamas. Anyone who stands still is well disciplined Hamas.

[–] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 93 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Ask Rachel Corrie, who was similarly run over by a bulldozer protecting Palestinian land. It's been over 20 years and the US still doesn't give a single shit about Israel murdering it's own citizens.

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 78 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Yeah I remember reading about her. She was an incredibly brave woman. The most horrifying part was reading about the IDF soldiers who had a pancake party to mock her death.

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[–] DavidGarcia@feddit.nl 173 points 4 days ago (2 children)

reminds me of this bit:

"not only will america go to your country and kill all your people but they'll come back 20 years later and make a movie about how killing your people made their soldiers feel sad."

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[–] uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 141 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (5 children)

In the aughts, once the US torture programs started getting public attention around 2003, I did my obsessive thing on the German Reich and the Holocaust.

During Operation Barbarossa, the SS was experimenting with eradication methods. The most common was the pogrom, endorsing the locals to massacre the undesirables. When they weren't undesirable enough or it was the whole village, the einsatzgruppen (death squads) had to come do it, usually forcing them to dig a mass grave and then executing them along the side.

It was messy and brutal and gross, and there was high turnover among the death squads (the US has a similar problem with its combat drone operators). And this was a major problem.

The SS experimented with other ideas, including deathwagons that would pipe the vehicle's exhaust into an enclosed chamber to kill dozens at a time, but even that was too harsh and too slow.

This is how the prototype genocide machine was made at Auschwitz. The program was contrived so no one who interacted with the live prisoners also interacted with the dead corpses. The guy who pushed the execute button was two persons removed in the chain of command from the guy who signed off on the execution order, and none of those people had to face the prisoners or the outcome. The point specifically was to make the process of massacre less stressful for the people involved.

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[–] Burn_The_Right@lemmy.world 47 points 3 days ago (10 children)

Poor guy. Did he also have to murder the little baby terrorists and their sobbing, horrified terrorist moms and terrorist sisters too? Poor fella. I hope he can muster the strength to do the right thing.

Fuck Israel and fuck conservatives (including neoliberals) who gleefully support this genocide. The wrong people are being erased.

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[–] Fosheze@lemmy.world 64 points 4 days ago (5 children)

Ah yes, those hundreds of "terrorists" all nicely lined up in the road.

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[–] Eiri@lemmy.ca 31 points 3 days ago (11 children)

Didn't the US use to invade countries for much, much less of a reason than that? Sheesh.

These days I'm finding myself agreeing with the Iranian government more and more often because of Israel's crap. I don't like agreeing with the Iranian government.

[–] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

I don’t like agreeing with the Iranian government.

I don't like agreeing with Hamas, either. But if the rest of the world isn't interested in lifting a finger against this genocidal excuse for a state, I guess that's just the way it's going to have to be.

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[–] Fosheze@lemmy.world 45 points 4 days ago
[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 65 points 4 days ago (2 children)

You would think it would be easy to find some poor conscript fuck who didn't run over civilians in a bulldozer struggling with the fact that they were coerced into being part of a genocide, but no, CNN goes with the guy who crushed human beings. Even as attempted hasbara, that's some high-level incompetence in CNN.

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[–] mlg@lemmy.world 45 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I swear this is almost trying to parody the title of the article about the 19 year old who was burned alive

[–] jonne@infosec.pub 34 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I'm sure we'll soon get an article about how the pilot felt sad about bombing a hospital.

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[–] yesman@lemmy.world 93 points 4 days ago (8 children)

One of the reasons for creating the system of death camps was that Nazi soldiers and policemen tasked with murdering Jewish people and other undesirables had elevated rates of PTSD. Also, during the Cultural Revolution, the People's liberation Army switched to a lower caliber sidearm because all the executions were giving them carpel tunnel.

You don't want to loose sight of humanity just because you're committing atrocity.

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[–] carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone 78 points 4 days ago (16 children)

i sincerely hope his actions haunt him for the rest of his pathetic life

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[–] nonentity@sh.itjust.works 18 points 3 days ago (13 children)

Some have labelled Israel as a rogue nation, but their actions are explicitly and implicitly condoned through other nation’s support and silence.

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