this post was submitted on 17 Sep 2024
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[–] TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world 123 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (15 children)

They sell everything they put into laptops, in that market they can't keep up with demand. Similar story for enterprise.

In the DIY desktop market, which this article is about, It's been instilled into everyone to wait for the X3D chips, by basically every reviewer. And for good reason.

Certainly doesn't help that:

  • a Windows 11 bug made performance look over 10% worse than it actually was on release, which is when all benchmarks are done and opinions are set (E: btw this has been fixed, and the fix also helped older CPUs too)

  • AMD decided to massively lower energy usage at the expense of out-of-box performance (I actually love this decision, I'm sick of components getting more and more power-hungry, and I'm sick of a hot stuffy room. Most gaming-focussed reviewers hated it though, which bugged me tbh because they also moan when power usage is high. I think they just like being negative because it drives engagement). At previous-gen TDPs, Zen 5 gains a lot of performance, but that's not how they are benchmarked.

  • the price of Zen 4 has dropped, and the 7800X3D in particular looks compelling to those who might've wanted Zen 5.

  • most DIY PC builders are PC gamers, and what do we need new CPUs for? Most gamers are more GPU bottlenecked right now, especially as people are moving to 1440p, 1440p ultrawide, or 4K. Add to that the fact that there have been very few good PC game releases this year and of course we're in a slump.

  • the only people who can buy a Zen5 CPU and drop it in their machine easily are Zen4 users, who won't see a large uplift and likely won't bother. People with earlier systems are looking at a significant investment - new motherboard and DDR5 RAM, why bother with that when the 5700X3D is such an insanely good value proposition that still won't be bottlenecked unless you're running an insanely good GPU?

[–] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 52 points 2 months ago (5 children)

the price of Zen 4 has dropped, and the 7800X3D in particular looks compelling to those who might’ve wanted Zen 5.

This is the big one.

Literally the best gaming chip from any company is a Zen 4 and surprisingly cheap

For most people they won't need anything more than a 7800x3d for 5 maybe even 10 years?

I'd hate to say what GPU it takes to make cpu the bottleneck on one of those.

[–] MrSnrub@sh.itjust.works 10 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Agreed, I bought a 7950X3D over the 9950X as it was $150 cheaper. Seemed like the smarter move.

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[–] infinitevalence@discuss.online 20 points 2 months ago

100%, it's the lack of the X3D parts. Zen 5 on its own is compelling but not for gamers and DIY, would I buy it in a pre-built desktop or a business machine, Yes I would all day long. But if I'm gaming and there's no X3D part why would I get anything else other than a 7800 X3D. AMD really shot themselves in the foot and what's worse is we warned them it was coming yet they chose not to listen.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 12 points 2 months ago

Let me agree with you explicitly on loving the return to a sane power configuration here. I was watching Hardware Unboxed's retest of this after the patches and it takes almost fifteen minutes of them reiterating that the 9700X and the 14700K are tied for performance and price before they even mention the bombshell that the 9700X is doing that with about half the wattage.

The fact that we keep pushing reviews and benchmarks focused strictly on pedal-to-the-metal overclocked performance and nothing else is such a disgrace. I made the mistake to buy into a 13700K and I have it under lower than out of box power limits manually both to prevent longevity issues and because this damn computer is more effective as a hair dryer than anything else.

We don't mention it much because Intel was in the process of catching on actual fire at the same time, but the way this generation has been marketed, presented to reviewers, supported and eventually reviewed has been a massive trainwreck, considering the performance of the actual product.

[–] CheeseNoodle@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago

I still have my 3700X and it keeps up well enough with a 4070 even on cyberpunk.

[–] Zanshi@lemmy.world 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

I'm still on my Zen1 1600, with DDR4 RAM and RX580 8GB which I built back in 2018. Whenever I'm thinking of upgrading I just look at the prices. I'd basically need to upgrade everything, maybe aside from GPU which would become a giant bottleneck, so it should be upgraded as well.
I really don't even want to think about gutting my PC and upgrading, I'd much rather switch to a console.

Go grab you something later in the AM4 line, like a 5600 or so, and an RX6700, as long as your power supply is up to it.

[–] vikingtons@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You could chuck a 57 or 5800X3D up in there for a substantial boost if your board vendor offers BIOS support.

[–] datelmd5sum@lemmy.world 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

even a 5600 would be a massive leap for about $100. Add something like a used 6600XT or a 3060 and you'll be back at current gen gaming at around $300€ total.

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[–] hardaysknight@lemmy.world 40 points 2 months ago (2 children)

We’re all broke and performance improvements have been basically stagnant?

[–] Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works 9 points 2 months ago

We're spending our money on fucking groceries... It's time to optimize, not upscale.

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[–] sqibkw@lemmy.world 34 points 2 months ago

Waiting for 9000 X3D. For most people, 7800X3D is more performant than anything 9000 series.

[–] Cyberjin@lemmy.world 29 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I'm still on AM4, mainly because the jump is very expensive, essentially a new pc.

I would need a new CPU, motherboard and Ram to fit in my itx case.

[–] Rinox@feddit.it 6 points 2 months ago

I'm honestly thinking of building a new AM4 PC. 5700X3D is under 200€ new, cheap mobo, cheap DDR4 RAM and tbh the benchmarks aren't that far off this new 9xxx series in gaming (which is the only thing I really care about). I'd rather save some money and get a better GPU

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[–] wreckedcarzz@lemmy.world 25 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Me, with a 7800X3D:

My ex, with a 7800X3D:

Anotger friend, with a 7600:

Collectively: "why would we upgrade just one generation?"

Like, sure, I have a Threadripper 1st and 2nd gen. I'm weird like that. I have a VII and a 7900 XTX. But the 7xxx is fine. I went from TR 2950X to the 7800X3D. Do I want more cores? Fuck yeah. Am I going to pay thousands of dollars for a modern high-core TR? Lmfao no.

If I was building a new machine for someone, sure, 9xxx. But shit, even a 3xxx in my network is still kicking ass. Why the hell would I upgrade when I don't want to? And the 7xxx is cheaper and - mostly - offers the same performance.

Drop the price if they want to sell more, simple as that. And don't expect upgrades every release family.

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[–] n3m37h@sh.itjust.works 24 points 2 months ago (4 children)

I got another 3-5 years with my 5800X3D

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[–] exocortex@discuss.tchncs.de 20 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Everybody has to support the new new underdog Intel.

[–] Mr_Blott@feddit.uk 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I did! I bought shares when they tanked.

They're still tanking

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 18 points 2 months ago

I'm sorry, but I don't have a grand to throw at a single fucking processor. I can put together a whole computer for that kind of coin.

[–] InvertedParallax@lemm.ee 17 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I'm considering it, but only just, my 5800x is good enough for most gaming, which is GPU bound anyway, and I run a dual xeon rig for my workstation.

zen 2-4 took care of a lot of the demand, we all have 8-16 cores now, what else could they give us?

[–] twoface@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I have a 5900x and honestly don't see any need for an upgrade anytime soon.

A new CPU would maybe give me like 10 fps more in games, but a new GPU would do more. And I don't think the CPU will be a bottle neck in the next few years

[–] InvertedParallax@lemm.ee 4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Even beyond that, short of something like blender, Windows just can't handle that kind of horsepower, it's not designed for it and the UI bogs down fairly fast.

Linux, otoh, I find can eat as much CPU as you throw at it, but often many graphics applications start bogging down the X server for me.

So I have a windows machine with the best GPU but passable cpu and a decent workstation gpu with insane cpu power on linux.

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[–] floofloof@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They do still seem to be making advances in single-core performance, but whether it matters to most people is a different question. Most people aren't using software that would benefit that much from these generation-to-generation performance improvements. It's not going to be anywhere near as noticeable as when we went from 2 or 4 cores to 8, 16, 24, etc.

[–] InvertedParallax@lemm.ee 5 points 2 months ago (4 children)

Single-thread is really hard, we've basically saturated our l1 working set size, adding more doesn't help much. Trying to extend the vector length just makes physical design harder and that reduces clock speed. The predictors are pretty good, and Apple finally kicked everyone up the ass to increase OOO like they should have.

Also, software still kind of sucks. It's better than it was, but we need to improve it, the bloat is just barely being handled by silicon gains.

Flash was the epochal change, maybe we have some new form of hybrid storage but that doesn't seem likely right now, Apple might do it to cut costs while preserving performance, actually yeah I see them trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Otherwise I don't know, we need a better way to deal with GPUs, there's nothing else that can move the needle, except true heterogenous core clusters, but I haven't been able to sell that to anyone so far, they all think it's a great idea, that someone else should do.

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[–] BigDaddySlim@lemmy.world 17 points 2 months ago (1 children)

My gaming desktop has a 5950x, I can run virtual machines and all games just fine. No reason to upgrade.

My Plex server runs an Intel 10400, handles everything I throw at it just fine. No reason to upgrade.

My home theater PC runs a Ryzen 1700 and again, runs just fine. No reason to upgrade.

I think the newest CPU in my house is either my Steam Deck's APU or the one in my PS5.

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[–] geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml 15 points 2 months ago

It is not an upgrade over the 7800X3D.

[–] MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 points 2 months ago (3 children)

I thought about an upgrade for a minute from my 3700X, but I realized none of the games I play or programs I use are demanding on CPU enough that it would make any real difference in my experience.

Games have kind of stalled out for me too, I haven't played a AAA game in years it feels like, and the other games I do play are not that demanding on modern hardware.

I would also need to upgrade to DDR5 RAM which is just more cost for a marginal upgrade.

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[–] bitwolf@lemmy.one 13 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The thing is the 7800x3d is a gem of a CPU. It's has more compute than I could use and it's low power and runs cool.

I'm going to run it until I can't anymore, and I'll continue to upgrade around the AMD ecosystem unless they stop being awesome.

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[–] ulterno@lemmy.kde.social 12 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I'll probably get one, once enough of its vulnerabilities are discovered and post-mitigation benchmarks are released.
And once I have enough money.

[–] HelloHotel@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

money.... chip I have in my rig right now is so expensive, I would need to save up for at least a year. its not broken so the money can be used on other things.

the capitolists are almost at the end of the of hungry hungry hippos game played with the world's money.

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[–] barsoap@lemm.ee 12 points 2 months ago

Would have to buy new board and RAM, not really worth it performance-wise, at least not for me. Some day, yes, but that day hasn't come and will definitely be after a GPU upgrade.

[–] Peffse@lemmy.world 11 points 2 months ago

I'm waiting on the new X870 chipset boards to come out. Why buy an old board with a new processor?

[–] xonigo@lemm.ee 11 points 2 months ago

I got an 5800x3d and 64gb of ddr4. I see no need to jump up to a new CPU and invest in ddr5 memory yet. The performance benefit is only a few percent just isn't worth the upgrade in my opinion

[–] randomaside@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 2 months ago

Price drop put the 7900x at bargain bin prices and I bought that instead.

[–] db2@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I wouldn't say nobody, but most people with a working Zen 4 don't see the need.

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[–] Concave1142@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago

I think I am going to be one of the people buying into Zen 5 but mainly for the longevity of the platform aspect. I'm in the preplanning stage of my next ProxMox server that will be my NAS (unRAID VM), local infrastructure (Samba AD, Adguard, etc.) & Gaming PC via Parsec/Moonlight or plugged directly into the PC with GPU/NVME passthrough to a VM for gaming.

Firewall is on a separate ProxMox host so if the ProxMox host needs a reboot internet will be fine.

[–] kemsat@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago

My 3700X is still working fine for me.

[–] semperverus@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago (5 children)

Two words: Microsoft Pluton.

Aaaaint touching that shit.

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[–] ghashul@feddit.dk 8 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I bought a 7800x3d, so I'm not in the market for a new CPU for years to come. If I hadn't already bought it, I'd buy it now.

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[–] 2001zhaozhao@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 months ago

Why would I downgrade from my 7000x3d chip

[–] helpImTrappedOnline@lemmy.world 7 points 2 months ago

Price is probably #1.

Bit of speculation here with no real sources ; There was a boom in late 2022 through 2023 when people could finally reliably get parts again. I'm guessing many who wanted to upgrade already did in the past 2 years. Anyone who got a new computer in 2020 onward should be fine for at least a few more years. I think the average is around 7 years.

The market will probably see a surge between 2027-2030 as people begin replacing their "covid era" computers.The market right now is mainly seeing anyone with a pre-covid computer who bought a nice top of line machine for about 1k. They're looking at current pricing and choosing to go with today's mid-low teir, which will outclass their old 201x top of the line computer.

Another factor could be AAA gaming hasn't exactly been pumping out hit new tiles the last 5 years. People who wanted to play cyberpunk or Eldon ring already upgraded by the time Wukon came out.

With less new games requirng the latest and greatest means the need to upgrade is going drop too.

Again all speculation....

[–] anhydrous@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago (2 children)

For me, it's because:

  • I have a 5950X and it seems pointless to upgrade from there. Sure the new stuff is faster, but disproportionately so for the price. I would need to replace a bunch of components.
  • I recently upgraded to 128GB RAM, and it was cheaper to do that with DDR4
  • I've had 2 faulty Ryzen processors (1700X, then my first 5950X), and I've learned to wait until the kinks are ironed out.
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[–] Fisch@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I'm currently in the market for a new CPU for my PC, so I did my research and I'm not going to buy a Zen 5 CPU either. The reason is simple: The Zen 4 X3D CPUs are faster. Because of that, everyone who wants a new CPU now is getting the Zen 4 X3Ds and everyone who can wait, is waiting for the Zen 5 X3Ds. There's no point in getting the Zen 5 CPUs that are currently out.

Edit: Actually, after reading the top reply, I'm not sure anymore if the Zen 5s aren't the better choice after all

[–] alsimoneau@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 months ago (7 children)

I'm still using a i7-3630QM and a R5-1600.

They are both enough for what I do with them. Why would I upgrade?

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I just built a computer, and honestly I didn't need much more CPU than the Ryzen 3600 from my old one. CPUs don't go obsolete the way they used to.

I went with a 7000 series pretty much entirely because my new motherboard said "Compatible with 7000 series. Compatible with 9000 series with a BIOS update." And I didn't want to bother with having to get a loaner 7000 series to do a BIOS update, then swap CPUs.

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