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If a real working class party includes these people I’d rather watch the world burn in hellfire
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this post was submitted on 22 Oct 2025
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Chapotraphouse
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That's a marketing metric the military likes to brag about.... But it's a bit misleading. They say 60% come from a middle class and 20% from below middle class.... However, they consider any household with an income from 38k -86k is middle class, which is a bit of a spread.
I mean that's just kinda ahistorical? Most of the higher up military in the Soviet Republic also served the Tsar. Was Georgy Zhukov not communist enough for us? What about Hugo Chavez?
My rebuttal and defense was against the general rejection of all military members, not any specific one. Obviously there needs to be context and nuance when evaluating individual character and whether or not someone has turned a new leaf.
Zhukov and Chavez proved their worth on the battlefield putting their lives on the line in combat against their former anticommunist masters (who were arguably less genocidal than the usa).
I don't have much experience with small leftist orgs in the imperial core but I'd think imagine its both good security and basic solidarity with the people america genocides to not have fascist soldiers who have been probably indoctrinated by deed and brainwashing anywhere near positions of leadership in a small leftist org at the stage of struggle that does not require armed combat.
Its an expression of rightful disdain at one of the world's worst fascist militaries who have never stopped committing genocide from the founding of their settler colony till now. Many people outside of america and its allies hate the us military to hell because the us military is often pointing guns at them, just like how everyone hates cops within the imperial core. They are the west's occupation force for the third world. For many, the reality is that they are a genocidal force to be fought off.
And how would an American soldier have the opportunity to do the same if they were not afforded the same opportunity?
I mean not to demean the extent of American war crimes..... However, the Russian imperial empire had just committed the Circassian genocide a couple decades before the revolution.
How do you think opsec is learned in the first place? I'm not saying to befriend an unapologetic rabid SS soldier. I'm saying there are plenty of people who are disenfranchised by the military who go on to train and lead revolutionary forces.
You can still disdain the military without disdaining former soldiers who learn class consciousness and now also disdain the military.
Yes....I know. My mother had to flee her country because the US installed a puppet dictatorship and she participated in a student uprising in the 80s. My grandfather had to hide in a hole for 2 years to evade US forces who were forcing inscription. We've lost communication to the majority of my family because the US continues to occupy half of my homeland.
If there is a revolution in the imperial core, you can guarantee that former US military will be involved. I'd rather there be a successful revolution than hold a grudge based on the choices people were forced into or chose out of ignorance when they were still teenagers.
"Opportunity" is not the same thing as "being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required". Zhukov and Chavez had to earn a lot of trust with their lives on the line in combat to get to where they were, especially Zhukov.
A few decades before that the americans had already ethnically cleansed north america. The russian empire was rightfully destroyed by the Bolsheviks while america still persists. Point being that american soldiers as part of a settler colonial ethnosupremacist anti communist military force are heavily indoctrinated to have deeply held reactionary beliefs. You dont have people like that anywhere near leadership of a communist org. Especially small ones that aren't focused on combat at the moment. Why do you have to have former fascist shock troopers leading a workers organization that is meant to fight for the very working class who the leader has oppressed and marginalized? Why should workers have to rely on their oppressors as the rightful figureheads of their liberation?
How about learning from the people who the us military lost against and/or who have experience fighting them. Veterans can act as trainers but they shouldn't be let near leadership positions for the same reason you don't want "former neo nazis" in positions of leadership either.
Yeah but it's fine not to especially for those who are oppressed by the us military. And for good reason. Look at how the former navyman itt reacted earlier to someone expressing rightful disdain towards the genocidal us military. Not saying he can't change for the better, he should, it's just that he's one of the most politically advanced amongst them.
Yes as the counterrevolutionary fascist paramilitary sent to kill the revolutionaries.
Surely a successful revolution would be possible without having "former nazis" in charge.
And the first step to do that is by accepting they could be of service to the cause despite their prior affiliation.
Also ""being given a leadership position in a small leftist organization during a time when armed combat is not required". Is your conditional, not mine.
Well, most of the time revolutions happen locally and the people who beat the US military are located across the globe?
Also trainers are leaders? I don't know why you are nit picking at the use of leadership, that's your claim and has nothing to do with my original argument.
Lol, I'm not saying there won't be ex military counter revolutionary forces. But what leads you to believe there won't be ex military revolutionary forces?
Can you give me any examples of successful revolutions that are made up of revolutionary fighters completely devoid of any combat experience? You can't just pick up a rifle with your buds and stand against a trained fire team.
No not of the entire organization.
I won't elaborate more on this, just know that there are ways to get around a distance barrier without attracting the attention of 3 letter agencies.
As if the masses are helpless fucks who can't learn how to fight a guerilla war without having some "former nazi" in charge of the entire operation.
Earliest comment: "Pretty much every effective militant revolution in history were founded or led by a group of former military members"
I assumed that the "most fervent and militant leftist organizers" referred to in the first comment had major leadership positions within their organizations when I made the comment: "Also if leftist organizations are being headed by former fascist soldiers then this is more of an indictment to those organizations than anything else tbh."
This could have been a wrong assumption, the copes continued regardless as if it was not.
My point isn't that "there will definitely be no ex fascist foot soldiers within a revolutionary movement", its that its fucking ridiculous to have them in positions of leadership over small nonviolent leftist organizations when the struggle hasn't turned violent. Bringing up Zhukov and Chavez is irrelevant because the stage of struggle during their time was already violent. Even when the struggle has turned violent these fucks need to prove their worth before being let anywhere near leadership over the organization.
Its just bizarre to start brown nosing "former fascist" soldiers in response to someone expressing rightful disdain towards the us military for being a ruthless genocidal white supremacist force that has destroyed many lives and continues to do so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with hating them and responding to the hate with "but muh not all troops" is beyond unnecessary and serves to distract from the fact that they have helped commit genocide and should be regarded as such, ideally held accountable just like the wehrmacht/waffen SS/IOF.