this post was submitted on 01 Jun 2024
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Q. Is this really as harmful as you think?

A. Go to your parents house, your grandparents house etc and look at their Windows PC, look at the installed software in the past year, and try to use the device. Run some antivirus scans. There’s no way this implementation doesn’t end in tears — there’s a reason there’s a trillion dollar security industry, and that most problems revolve around malware and endpoints.

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[–] simple@lemm.ee 152 points 4 months ago (31 children)

They OCR the entire screen and store it in plaintext?! There is no way... I know it's Microsoft we're talking about, but are they really this stupid?

[–] tal@lemmy.today 100 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (29 children)

It's encrypted; the author is pointing out that it has to be decrypted to be used, and then the data can be obtained.

Security and privacy concerns aside, I saw someone commenting on the use case, asking who would ever want something like this.

One problem I hadn't appreciated for a long time was that some people apparently have real problems with dealing with the Windows UI in terms of file access. They don't know where their data is being saved. This, in my opinion, is in significant part a Microsoft UI problem induced by various virtual interfaces being slapped on top of the filesystem ("Desktop", "My Documents", application save directories, etc) to try to patch over the issue that the filesystem layout was kinda organically-designed in a kind of cryptic way back in the day.

But if you can remember a snippet of text in what you were working on, you can find that thing again even if you have no idea where you stored it. Like, it's content-keyed file access.

That's not very useful to a techie. They know how to navigate their system's filesystem, and even if they lose track of a particular thing, they know how to use the system's filesystem search tools to search for filenames or content. They can search for recently-modified files. They know how to generally get ahold of stuff.

But for the people who can't do that, reducing their interface to a single search box might make file access more approachable.

Now, let me reiterate that I think that a whole lot of this is Microsoft repeatedly patching over UI problems they created in the past rather than fixing them. And they've done this before over the decades with stuff other than document access. It's hard to navigate the filesystem to find an installed program a la the MS-DOS era, so they stick stuff in a Start Menu to make it more accessible. That gets too crowded, installers start slapping shortcuts on the desktop. That gets too crowded, installers start adding system tray icons. That gets too crowded, the Start Menu becomes searchable. Each interface just becomes progressively less-usable and the solution each time is to stick a new interface in on top of the old one, which in turn contributes to the complexity of the system as a whole.

But that doesn't mean that they aren't trying to address a real problem.

I think that they'd do better with something like having a rapidly-accessible log of recently-accessed files (like, maybe have the filesystem maintain a time-based doubly-linked list of those) and be able to rapidly search the content of documents based on mod time so that recent stuff gets hit quickly, then trying to make their existing search tools more accessible. That doesn't replicate data across the system and produce some of the problems here. It also permits for fully-searching content, rather than just the stuff that was on a screen when the Recall system grabbed a screenshot and OCRed it. Maybe they've done something like that in recent years; I'm many years out-of-date on Windows.

I'd also add that I think that personal computer systems in general would benefit from giving users better control over where their data is replicated to. It's kind of confusing...you've got swap (well, encrypted swap probably helps somewhat with this). Browser history. Any clipboard manager's retention. Credentials stores. Application-saved copies of in-progress files. Various caches. If you use some kind of cloud-based storage, you're pushing data out to other computers. Backups. Just a lot of state that can be replicated all over the place and is hard to go back and track down and remove. That's even before stuff like issues with doing secure deletion on existing filesystems (which we had a conversation about the other day, everything from log-structured filesystems to wear-leveling on SSDs inducing data replication). If you want something definitely gone, be able to manage your data's lifetime, something that I think that a lot of people -- even non-techies -- would like, you really have to have a lot of technical knowledge of the system's internals as things stand today. This Recall thing is egregious, replicates data all over, but it's far from the first feature that makes it harder for people to understand and control the lifetime of data on their computer.

I don't think that the software world has done a great job of letting people control that data lifetime. And I think that it's something that a user should reasonably be able to expect out of their computer.

[–] astrsk@piefed.social 24 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Yeah this is why Apple has been slowly peeling away traditional file / folder features from front and center. The user doesn’t care where or how they get their files, they just want them at any given time. Spotlight being the most successful at obfuscating where anything is yet allowing access to everything. Microsoft has started to pick up on that and attempt to solve the same problems.

[–] fartsparkles@sh.itjust.works 26 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The bizarre thing is, they have solved it. PowerToys Run is the Spotlight omnibar of everything and they bizarrely haven’t chosen to bake it into Windows proper. I can’t use Windows without it now. Search files and folders everywhere faster than the start menu search, search running processes, execute commands, do maths, calculate hashes, open web pages. It’s fantastic.

[–] Rekorse@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Do you use windows by choice or for work?

[–] fartsparkles@sh.itjust.works 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Both. I’m one of those weird people that uses Linux, macOS, Windows, Android, and iOS on a daily basis (Android probably less than daily now as I’m not travelling as much as I used to). My job necessitates it but also I just enjoy having mixed estates at home to stay fresh. I am, however, eager to stop using Windows at home as the overall security health and conscience of Microsoft these days seems to be trending downwards.

[–] Rekorse@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 months ago

Windows hasnt quite felt as risky as it does now, that I can remember at least.

Luckily my company outsourced the IT security department to India and have since had a handful of breaches and zero remediation efforts. I'm sure this windows stuff is firmly in the "care later" bin.

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